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Discussion Starter #1
To all you Toyota execs:
Please bring a V12 sedan to the US. Not in LS trim but perhaps an even bigger and beefier flagship. We Americans have the $$ and the cheap gas to run those monsters...why do you think MB, BMW, Audi, and Jaguar makes em??
Comon, a new ultra luxury performance sedan with a V12. If you make one, I'll buy one. And I bet many others will too.

Listen to the customer!!

Lexus IS300
black/ivory
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It is funny to read one of these "sound bytes" in our current oil situation.
"We Americans have the $$ and the cheap gas to run those monsters..." This at a time when our gas prices are out of control due to fule shortages. Now I am not saying that we should dump cars because we need to conserve gas. In fact, I drive so aggressively that I get a bit over 15 miles to the gallon in my IS 300. I just thought it was funny to see after todays headlines.
 

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Well, our gas is pretty cheap compared to Japan...I don't know how the Japs can even afford gas...that's probably why it is home of the econoboxes. Japan has some pretty strange looking econo cars.
 

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Well as far as the GAS price issue is concerned, it wouldn't pertain to Japan. The reason being that the GS400 (built in Japan) is not available for sale in Japan (too powerful). So if Lexus did manufacture a V12, that too may not be available in Japan but who knows.
Eric...
 

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Why are you so fascinated by V12s? The Lexus V8 is already as smooth and torquey as any V12. Jaguar no longer puts V12s in the XJ and XK because the V8 can perform just as well and is more fuel efficient.
 

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EricK, the Japs do have a V12. It is in Toyota's flagship luxo barge. It produces "280" HP, but loads of torque. It is not a sports car by any means. It is strictly for executive treatment.
 

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V12 engines run alot smoother then V8s, but other then that, there really isn't any point of putting up another V12 luxury when V8 can do the job just fine.

GS300/400 are SOLD in Japan, however, as with Japanese regulation, ALL Japanese cars sold within Japan have max HP of 280...

And indeed, North America may as well have the cheapest gas price in the world. Go to Japan, Taiwan, HK, or any European countries, and you will realize we are actually in car heaven(gas price wise, at least)....

Andy Kuo
 

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I'm positive that the GS400 is unavailable in Japan (as I read this in a Motor Trend). Like HIB said, it's available as a twin turbo I-6 (from supra) called the Toyota Aristo.
Eric....
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I know that the V12 is a big and gas guzzling combination, but with new technology they can reduce emissions and gas milage to that of a V8.
The only reason I think a V12 is neccessary is to compete with the Germans. After all, even an LS430 (with it's gobs of torque) can't compete with the 2001 S600 or the upcoming 750iL. So they should either offer a bigger and even more luxurious car to challenge that league or soup up the 4.3 V8 to come up with something like the S55 or M'd version of their flagship.
In other words, it seems like the emphasis is on extreme Luxury along with race car like performance (at who cares what price), so they need to catch up with the Germans.
Even Audi is offering a 360 hp S8. Pretty soon, Infiniti's 340 hp ugly Q45 will be out, so they should start working on something fast.

black/ivory
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Hasanazhar,
In the latest Motor Trend the BMW 740iL did 0-60 in 6.6 seconds and in a previous issue of Motor Trend the much heavier 750iL did 0-60 in 7.3 seconds. The DOHC V8 in the BMW has 4 valves per cylinder compared to the old SOHC 24 valve V12 engine used in the 750iL. A V8 can accomplish the same objective with less moving parts. Look at the V8's used in the E55 and BMW M5. A V12 is too excessive and made for the ego maniac. The extra money you put into say an S600 over an S500 or a BMW 750iL over a 740iL is not justifiable.
Eric...
 

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Originally posted by hasanazhar:
guess you're right Eric, but then what about a beefier version of the 4.3L V8?
Hasanazhar,
NOW YOU'RE TALKING!! I've asked in a previous post why Lexus doesn't make a GS500 to take on the BMW M5, Mercedes Benz E55, and the supercharged Jaguar XJR. There are reasons why Lexus shouldn't bring a V12 here but I don't see any significant reasons as to why Lexus doesn't incorporate a 5.0 liter V8 into a GS500.
Eric...
 

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I think rather than putting in a 5.0L V-8, Toyota may decide to put a sequential turbo system onto the current 4.3L V-8, if they ever decide to go compete with the M5 and E55. I think Toyota now has very good knowledge of turbocharging a V-8 system, due to TRD's involvement with CART, so they maybe better off trying to adding turbo than adding displacement. Another thing is I don't think the engine bay of the GS can fit a bigger engine anymore.
 

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Originally posted by Daniel:
I think rather than putting in a 5.0L V-8, Toyota may decide to put a sequential turbo system onto the current 4.3L V-8, if they ever decide to go compete with the M5 and E55. I think Toyota now has very good knowledge of turbocharging a V-8 system, due to TRD's involvement with CART, so they maybe better off trying to adding turbo than adding displacement. Another thing is I don't think the engine bay of the GS can fit a bigger engine anymore.
Daniel,
HIGH OUTPUT NORMALLY ASPIRATED ENGINES RULE!! I'd rather Lexus use their technological know how and get their power with a larger displacement V8 (like a 5.0 liter) rather than add a turbocharger (albeit it may make more power with the turbo). My friend has a twin turbo Audi S4 (Tiptronic) and it's like a totally different car in warm weather than cold. While it's a VERY fast car in cold weather, it's much slower in warmer weather. Plus he has to cool the turbos after hard driving for a couple mins (let's it idle).
Eric...
 

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Yep, I agree that larger engine is better (to a certain point though). The problems you mention about turbos are possible reasons why Toyota would go against turbo engine in a Lexus, but there are also reason why they would. The Aristo in Japan already has a turbo engine, and all they need to do is increase the boost a little bit to get to the level of M5 and E55. We all know that engine is reliable, no doubt about that. And Toyota does not have as much experience with larger displacment engine than turbocharged engine, hence I highly doubt they will build something they are not too familiar with it. If they go with the Aristo setup, all they need to do is tuned the suspension and bump the horsepower up a little bit, no major R&D is involved. From marketing point of view, I believe this is a better strategy.
I would also think they may bring the 2.5L turbo I-6 here for the IS, and make it a M3 challenger. But the chance of this one happening is pretty slim.
 

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hmmmm... I wonder what will happen. Maybe Lexus is just not interested in getting involved with that niche (at least in the US). I haven't heard about any plans but you never know..
Eric...
 

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All right, here are the facts.

Lexus (or in this case Toyota) do have a V12. It is larger than the LS. It's been in production from more than 20 years, though it used to have a V8 only until a couple of years ago.

For some older forum members its no news but its called the Century. It has the 1GZ engine which is 5L V12. 280HP and 49kgm torque. As you already know the 280HP is a voluntary limit so the potential is a lot higher.

It is not sold as Lexus overseas. In fact, its not sold in the US. It is however sold in other countries as the Toyota Century and about a 100 of them are exported every year. About 500 of them are sold every year in Japan.

This car is not sold to anybody though. There is a screening test to see whether the person/establishment is up to the standards of owning this vehicle. A famous and rich comedian in Japan tried to buy it and was cordially refused.

But this is basically a chauffer driven car, so don't expect anything fancy. If you do own one, you're supposed to sit in the back seat and not drive the car. If you really want to drive one, I know that the official car for the President of Indonesia is the Century, so you might as well apply for a job there.

You can see the car here, though its only in Japanese.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Century/index.html

[This message has been edited by Altezza (edited September 24, 2000).]
 

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Erick's right. Turbos suck in hot, humid weather. My Viggen used to do 0-60 in the low-sixes in January, but during the humid Iowa summertime, the best I could do was 7.3.


Originally posted by EricK:
Daniel,
HIGH OUTPUT NORMALLY ASPIRATED ENGINES RULE!! I'd rather Lexus use their technological know how and get their power with a larger displacement V8 (like a 5.0 liter) rather than add a turbocharger (albeit it may make more power with the turbo). My friend has a twin turbo Audi S4 (Tiptronic) and it's like a totally different car in warm weather than cold. While it's a VERY fast car in cold weather, it's much slower in warmer weather. Plus he has to cool the turbos after hard driving for a couple mins (let's it idle).
Eric...

 
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