I agree on the hardball part but don't expect to swing a good deal before the car comes out. Demand seems reasonabely high and dealers are probably going to want sticker plus a little. I'm waiting for the manual cars to come and will probably buy used. The only option I want is LSD so I'm hoping to do $28k in a couple years if I buy new. With Lexus though I wonder if it's even possible to find a base car.