Lexus better get on their horse...

3367 Views 139 Replies 11 Participants Last post by TEG, Oct 30, 2000

S38

Discussion Starter · Oct 26, 2000

If they want to build a competitor to this in the near future:

Motor Trend quotes the new M3 as...

"The World's Best Sports Sedan...Again"

"It's a tach-pegging, tire-abusing, power-sliding, apex-hitting, ear-pleasing, ultra-precise high-speed thrill"

0-60 = 4.8 (est)
1/4 = 13.2/109.0 (est)

Damn, I want one.

------------------
S38
91 M5

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21 - 40 of 140 Posts

Young

· #21 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
Because these people do NOT know how to tune the suspension and the tires. I would go as far as to say that these owners do NOT belong to the track........

The reported track times you acknowledged is clear evidence.

Hmmm... I don't know if these people don't belong on the track. One was a beginner, true. But the other was a race instructor.

As for acknowledging equality in track time...I DIDN'T. I just said I didn't dispute it because I haven't heard one way or the other. Could you point me at the source of your information?

Young

· #22 · Oct 27, 2000

Now that I think about it...I think I recall a post on bimmer.org that said that the E46 M3 was FASTER at Nurburgring than the M5.

LexusIS300

· #23 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
Hmmm... I don't know if these people don't belong on the track. One was a beginner, true. But the other was a race instructor.

As for acknowledging equality in track time...I DIDN'T. I just said I didn't dispute it because I haven't heard one way or the other. Could you point me at the source of your information?

I am sure a race instructor knows how to adjust shocks, sway bars, or tire pressure and width. Check out bimmer.org. The times are both 8'20".

LexusIS300

· #24 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
Now that I think about it...I think I recall a post on bimmer.org that said that the E46 M3 was FASTER at Nurburgring than the M5.

Somebody smoking dope........

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LexusIS300

· #25 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
The stars and planets must have been conjunction for EVO. The fact remains that BMW thinks the E46 M3 is faster 0-60 than the E39 M5. The numbers from BMW are 4.8s (M3) vs. 5.2s (M5). I'll tell you what, if you get your M5 and I get an M3, I'll race ya. ^_^
[This message has been edited by Young (edited October 27, 2000).]

Wrong again. BMW's number for the M5 is also 4.8 s. Check out bmwusa.com. Typically, BMW just follow some reported numbers from the magazines.

LexusIS300

· #26 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
........the two M5 owners I've talked to say that they preferred the M3 as a track car.

By the way, many BMW enthusiasts prefer the older and lighter E30 M3, NOT even the more current and heavier E36 M3. You have mistakened what they refer to.

[This message has been edited by LexusIS300 (edited October 27, 2000).]

Young

· #27 · Oct 27, 2000

Ah...here is a web site with Nurburgring numbers:
http://www.born-free.net/nordschleife.html

According to this site, the E46 M3 was two seconds SLOWER than the M5 AND the E36 M3 (euro version)! I'd assume though that conditions weren't equal or that the E46 they were testing wasn't quite ready for prime time . So I'd take these numbers with a large grain of salt. I'd be willing to bet good money that an E46 M3 will better these times sometime this year.

Young

· #28 · Oct 27, 2000

Ah...here is a web site with Nurburgring numbers:
http://www.born-free.net/nordschleife.html

According to this site, the E46 M3 was two seconds SLOWER than the M5 AND the E36 M3 (euro version)! I'd assume though that conditions weren't equal or that the E46 they were testing wasn't quite ready for prime time . So I'd take these numbers with a large grain of salt. I'd be willing to bet good money that an E46 M3 will better these times sometime this coming year.

LexusIS300

· #29 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
Ah...here is a web site with Nurburgring numbers:
http://www.born-free.net/nordschleife.html

According to this site, the E46 M3 was two seconds SLOWER than the M5 AND the E36 M3 (euro version)! I'd assume though that conditions weren't equal or that the E46 they were testing wasn't quite ready for prime time . So I'd take these numbers with a large grain of salt. I'd be willing to bet good money that an E46 M3 will better these times sometime this year.

Please stick with what is reported, unless there is clear evidence to support otherwise........

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Young

· #30 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
By the way, many BMW enthusiasts prefers the older and lighter E30 M3, NOT even the more current and heavier E36 M3. You have mistakened what they refer to.

[This message has been edited by LexusIS300 (edited October 27, 2000).]

They prefer both E30 and E36 M3s as track cars over the M5. Besides the two owners I've talked to personally, I've read many other opinions on this question. I posted this very question on both the M3 and M5 forums on bimmer.org a couple of months back. The verdict was UNANIMOUS ... the M3 is a better handling car and the one I should get if I wanted to take it to the track .... which I do.

Young

· #31 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
Please stick with what is reported, unless there is clear evidence to support otherwise........

Hmmm...how about a wager? If the E46 M3 is not on top of the E39 M5 at Nurburgring by the end of 2001, you get my M3 slot (I'll be putting down a deposit in the next few weeks). If you lose, however, I get your M5 slot. ^_^

LexusIS300

· #32 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
They prefer both E30 and E36 M3s as track cars over the M5. Besides the two owners I've talked to personally, I've read many other opinions on this question. I posted this very question on both the M3 and M5 forums on bimmer.org a couple of months back. The verdict was UNANIMOUS ... the M3 is a better handling car and the one I should get if I wanted to take it to the track .... which I do.

This is NOT a popularity contest. The track times is a better gauge. And by the way, I did say the M3 is more agile, only a little too heavy for a sports coupe. When a high-speed cruiser (NOT a sports coupe) can beat it on the track, it is clear evidence.

Young

· #33 · Oct 27, 2000

There's a footnote at bmwusa.com that indicates they're using C&D's numbers. BMW used to claim 5.2s, with their own test drivers. Let's wait and see what C&D achieves with the E46 M3.

LexusIS300

· #34 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
Hmmm...how about a wager? If the E46 M3 is not on top of the E39 M5 at Nurburgring by the end of 2001, you get my M3 slot (I'll be putting down a deposit in the next few weeks). If you lose, however, I get your M5 slot. ^_^

You really hate to lose an argument, do you?........

I am NOT loyal to any brand NOR model at all. If BMW were to improve on the new M3, then I am very happy to switch. But up-to-date, the M5 is better all around.

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LexusIS300

· #35 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
There's a footnote at bmwusa.com that indicates they're using C&D's numbers. BMW used to claim 5.2s, with their own test drivers. Let's wait and see what C&D achieves with the E46 M3.

Arrhhh, so you are referring to magazines now? Please make up your mind........

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Young

· #36 · Oct 27, 2000

All I am saying is that drivers and conditions being equal, the E46 M3 will be a better track car than the E39 M5. And I'd be willing to wager something real on it. The M5 has the M3 beat in luxury, but it's just very hard for me to believe that a lighter car with newer drivetrain technologies and the same or better accelerative capabilities is NOT better on the track. It just doesn't make sense. You're the very first person I've heard say that the M5 is just as good a track car as the M3. You must know something that a lot of M3 and M5 owners don't! Have you even driven an M5? I can't say I have. I did though test drive an E36 M3 and 540i back to back, and though the 540i may be significantly quicker in the straightaways, the cornering leaves much to be desired. The M5 may be a different beast, but it has the same weight problem the 540i has and the laws of physics have not been repealed.

Daniel

· #37 · Oct 27, 2000

I am not taking on any side regarding this issue, but I am hoping Young is right on this issue. If E46 M3 is really slower than the M5, then I think I may reconsider the direction BMW is heading with their cars, and I may not want to get an M3 once I saved up enough money. I hope they are not cave into the "let's take out a little performance and satsified those rich people who want a luxury coupe that can kick Corvette's butt" thing.

Young

· #38 · Oct 27, 2000

By the way, take those Nurburgring numbers with a HUGE grain of salt. Check out the time for the Audi RS4. Ten seconds faster than the M5 and five seconds faster than the Z8! What's not clear from the list are the drivers, the mods, and the conditions for the lap times.

LexusIS300

· #39 · Oct 27, 2000

2

Originally posted by Young:
All I am saying is that drivers and conditions being equal, the E46 M3 will be a better track car than the E39 M5. And I'd be willing to wager something real on it. The M5 has the M3 beat in luxury, but it's just very hard for me to believe that a lighter car with newer drivetrain technologies and the same or better accelerative capabilities is NOT better on the track. It just doesn't make sense. You're the very first person I've heard say that the M5 is just as good a track car as the M3. You must know something that a lot of M3 and M5 owners don't! Have you even driven an M5? I can't say I have. I did though test drive an E36 M3 and 540i back to back, and though the 540i may be significantly quicker in the straightaways, the cornering leaves much to be desired. The M5 may be a different beast, but it has the same weight problem the 540i has and the laws of physics have not been repealed.

You must attend the horse track very often. I make a living on speculation. I move 7 figures in and out of the markets everyday........

Open your eyes and observe the evidence instead of arguing just for the sake of it. The E39 M5 beats the E46 M3 in a straightline as well as on the track, according to ALL reported times so far. Either BMW did a godly job for the E39 M5 (a high-speed cruiser) or they under-engineered (relatively speaking) the E46 M3 (a sports coupe). But it is fact that the E39 M5 is better all around. I did test drive an E39 M5 several times before I placed the deposit. It is awesome and you should try too. As far as the understeer is concerned, it is tunable, otherwise how did the car perform so well on the track at 4,024 lb. I have already said, the E46 M3 should be more agile. But it is a little heavy as a sport coupe and hence, losing to a top-of-the-line high-speed cruiser on the track. As far as the straightline is concerned, I have already calculated the acceleration times and top speeds with the published gear ratios, HP numbers, RPM limit, torque numbers, wheel diameter,........ etc. They revealed that the E39 M5 (as long as traction holds) should be ~6 % more accelerative at any speeds plus the top speed is ~10 MPH higher. And they are consistent with the reported numbers so far. I do NOT need any popular support........

This is NOT to say the E46 M3 CANNOT be improved. But once again up-to-date, the E39 M5 is better all around.

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LexusIS300

· #40 · Oct 27, 2000

Originally posted by Young:
By the way, take those Nurburgring numbers with a HUGE grain of salt. Check out the time for the Audi RS4. Ten seconds faster than the M5 and five seconds faster than the Z8! What's not clear from the list are the drivers, the mods, and the conditions for the lap times.

Do you know the the RS4 has AWD and 380 HP? Open your eyes and stop cherry picking the numbers.

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