Lexus better get on their horse...

Actually, I think a lot of the Japanese companies have groups of German engineers in Germany working on designs. They are starting to use the Ring for testing also.

I think all engineers would love to be given free reign to build cars like the M3. It is only the bean counters that stop them.

Without reading all the posts, the track time for the M3 at the Ring was with a car full of test equipment. I read an interview with the lead engineer. They have not taken the car out there empty to see what the quickest lap time is.

Bottom line, as an owner of an M5, I would prefer any M3 for a track car. Weight is weight and limits your cornering ability. The new M3 will be much quicker on your average track with an average driver than the M5. Sure, with some camber plates and sways the M5 could close the gap but you can't make it much lighter.

By the way, the M3 is not a sportscar so it is ok to have a few extra pounds for the backseat, etc.

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S38
91 M5

One other thing, the M3 has the best brakes of any BMW I can recall in terms of track performance. They are just huge and actually may not warp after a few hard laps like most. M5 owners in Europe have roasted their brakes on the track.

As for the M5 being more powerful, that has always been the case. This car is in fact the closest ever to the M5.

E30 M3 was anywhere from 6.0-6.4 to 60mph and 14.7-15.1 in the 1/4 mile; E28 M5 was at 6.0 and mid to low 14's. Depending on the test. The E34 M5 w/315hp was tested by C&D at 5.6 and 14.5. I kill E30's in a straight line, until the first corner anyway. The 1993-1995 Euro M5 was a 340hp beast. The E36 really never had an M5 to compare with.

A few clicks in acceleration will make little difference in real world driving to most of us.

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S38
91 M5

You continue to assume the M3 was slower on the Ring than the M5. The fact is, it really hasn't been tested in the same way as the M5 yet. We will have to wait and see.

The tone of the interview with the engineer was that the most impressive performance of the M3 will come from its chassis, not necessarily the engine. This has always been the case. I have book of reviews of all //M cars and most test drives of the M3, especially the first, spend most of the time discussing the wonderful handling of the cars. There is something to be said for driving enjoyment. I have driven the new M5 and while it is awesome it is heavy and you feel the weight. It may be capable of M3-like performance but it will lay waste to tires and brakes achieving it.

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S38
91 M5

LexusIS300, argumentative sort aren't you. My comment was made with a nice tone, though I know you couldn't hear it. The Euro E36 M3 has a similar engine to the new one but not chassis. The chassis has had significant changes vs. the E36.

Like I said we will have to wait and see.

By the way Eric, just for the sake of a friendly rivalry, did you read the recent Automobile article on the M3 where they said AMG could learn a few things from BMW about a nice handling car that also rides nice?

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S38
91 M5

Autocrossing is not a good example. If it was, something like Mini Cooper would be the best handling car.

I believe the kind of handling in that infamous test was much more of your roadcourse variety. The M3 won simply because it was the most intuitive and easiest to drive at the limit. Of course, that is subjective and was merely the opinion of five writers.

Other cars in the M3's stock class: MR2, Boxster and S2000. Which would you choose for the very specialized world of autox?

Calling the results "data" is quite a stretch.

By the way, were the Supra and Skyline that beat the M3 and M5 stock?

I would say that is fine company.

Like I said quite some time ago, the declaration by the reviewers is that they felt it was the best--admittedly subjective in view of numbers. I guess one first has to ask what "handling" means.

There hasn't even been full roadtests of the M3 yet. It is kind of jumping the gun to make any conclusion at this time. I would guess they will be very close with the nod to the M5 for luxury and cruising and the M3 for backroad barnstorming.

Most of the Ring numbers are from factory test drivers over the years. It is not as if someone went there for one day and drove each car.

Personally, once I can work it out I am getting an E30 M3. Not so fast but a blast to drive.

Yes, the E30 is expensive to maintain but it is worth it, just like an M5. I guess if it is a factor you shouldn't drive the car.

Checkout these two very special M cars.
http://www.shortshifter.com/robsnewtoy

You guys are too much. I would buy you both beers to calm you down if we were in a bar or point out some nice looking women to distract you.

Nope. That is Rob Levinson's of UUC Motorwerks.

My car has 122k miles on it. Has NEVER broken down on me in 40k miles. I have had to fix things but nothing stopped it from running. Overall it has been very dependable. The AC went out at 100k but that has been the only significant failure. I removed the stock self-leveling suspension because it was leaking (it was fine, I wanted a performance suspension ).

I work on my own cars to a point and quite enjoy it.

Mine is a white sedan. That wagon is very rare and was imported to the states. The 340hp M5 was never sold here.

My car is the normal 315hp North American version. That blue wagon on the link was imported and federalized. Would be very expensive to do in Calif and thus is not really worth it.