[S38]

If they want to build a competitor to this in the near future:

Motor Trend quotes the new M3 as...

"The World's Best Sports Sedan...Again"

"It's a tach-pegging, tire-abusing, power-sliding, apex-hitting, ear-pleasing, ultra-precise high-speed thrill"

0-60 = 4.8 (est)
1/4 = 13.2/109.0 (est)


Damn, I want one.

------------------
S38
91 M5

 

[Chiphead]

I'm surprised bigger companies like Toyota or GMC don't poach engineers from Stuggart. I'm sure they can make an offer that the engineers can't refuse. I'd be curious to know if BMW makes their employees sign some kind of NDA so they can't carry the trade secrets with them. I know Toyota tries to break down the M5 and Z8 into components to see how everything fits together, and I'm sure it is a common practice.

[This message has been edited by Chiphead (edited October 26, 2000).]

 

[mrclam]

i think german engineers stick with german companies because they're all extremely performance oriented. i'm sure bmw mb and porsche pay their engineers more than enough and like they say, no one understands polar movement like bmw's engineers. i think, like the japanese with reliability, that the management of bmw is very performance oriented so that allows the engineers to do their best with the least compromise? i dunno

 

[S38]

Actually, I think a lot of the Japanese companies have groups of German engineers in Germany working on designs. They are starting to use the Ring for testing also.

I think all engineers would love to be given free reign to build cars like the M3. It is only the bean counters that stop them.

 

[LexusIS300]

Originally posted by S38:
Lexus better get on their horse........

Any of the following would do, IF they will ever arrive in RHD version.

Skyline GTR (Vspec or 400R)
4000GT
Impreza WRX (the real one or 22B)
Lancer Evo

 

[Young]

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
Any of the following would do, IF they will ever arrive in RHD version.

Skyline GTR (Vspec or 400R)
4000GT
Impreza WRX (the real one or 22B)
Lancer Evo

All of those are great cars and I'd love to have one of each in my garage, but what makes the M3 a little more special is that it combines luxury and street-practicality with ultra-performance sport.

 

[HIBBoyScott]

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
Any of the following would do, IF they will ever arrive in RHD version.

Skyline GTR (Vspec or 400R)
4000GT
Impreza WRX (the real one or 22B)
Lancer Evo

Um, what? Don't all those cars already come in RHD? Or does RHD not mean Right Hand Drive? Maybe you mean LHD?

 

[LexusIS300]

Originally posted by Young:
All of those are great cars and I'd love to have one of each in my garage, but what makes the M3 a little more special is that it combines luxury and street-practicality with ultra-performance sport.

Yes, I meant LHD in the original post. Me, bad........

I want one of each in my garage too........

But if I need luxury and ultra performance I would take the M5 instead. NOT to mention that the M5 is also a limited-production car. Other than slightly less agile, it beats the new M3 in every category. I have a deposit on one. The new M3, while a top-notch design, is a little too heavy for what it is supposed to be, similar to the late model 300ZX in the early/ mid 90s.

[This message has been edited by LexusIS300 (edited October 26, 2000).]

 

[mrclam]

i tihnk the weight specs said about 3400 lbs....so they added 100hp and added 200lbs, i'd take that. the m3 is a bit more of a sport car whereas the m5 is a bit more of a luxury cruiser

 

[LexusIS300]

Originally posted by mrclam:
i tihnk the weight specs said about 3400 lbs....so they added 100hp and added 200lbs, i'd take that. the m3 is a bit more of a sport car whereas the m5 is a bit more of a luxury cruiser

~3,450 lb is a little too heavy for a sports car. More HP does NOT entirely compensate more weight, because the car would be less responsive. Many BMW enthusiasts still prefer the older and lighter E30 M3. The Skyline is also ~3,450 lb, but it carries a 300+ lb AWD system. It is true that the E39 M5 is designed as a luxury high-speed cruiser. But it is the most responsive luxury, high-speed cruiser. Even at 4,024 lb, the track time of an E39 M5 at N________burg {forget the spelling........

] is identical to the new E46 M3. [But the 911 Turbo, Supra, and Skyline beat them both........

] The E39 M5 is also a little better on straight-line acceleration and top speed, NOT to mention luxury and exclusivity.

[This message has been edited by LexusIS300 (edited October 26, 2000).]

 

[Young]

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
But if I need luxury and ultra performance I would take the M5 instead. NOT to mention that the M5 is also a limited-production car. Other than slightly less agile, it beats the new M3 in every category. I have a deposit on one. The new M3, while a top-notch design, is a little too heavy for what it is supposed to be, similar to the late model 300ZX in the early/ mid 90s.
]

If the M3 is a little too heavy, the M5 is a lot too heavy. Although I won't dispute your Nurburgring numbers, the two M5 owners I've talked to say that they preferred the M3 as a track car. At any rate, I'm torn between the M3 and the M5 for my next car. I'll probably put a deposit on both and make up my mind later. Or, if the NASDAQ cooperates, I'll get both. ^_^

 

[Young]

I'd go as far as to say that the M5 owners were 'disappointed' with their cars on the track. They just understeer way too much.

 

[Young]

One last point...the M5 is NOT faster 0-60 than the new M3. BMW now claims 4.8 seconds 0-60 for the E46 M3 and the number has been backed up by a couple of magazines. BMW claims 5.2s I think for the M5.

 

[mrclam]

i think the m5 goes in 4.8 also

 

[Daniel]

I don't know about the other Japanese supercars (if that's what you call them), but Skyline is pretty luxurious when compared side by side with the M3. It has got a very nice interior, which surprise me a little bit when I first saw it. The R34 is especially nice in the inside, and I think both R34 GTR and the E46 M3 are pretty close comparison. On the track, I think it depends on how brave you are. Anyone who knows how to drive a rear wheel drive car can power the M3 to decent timing, but to get the GTR to go fast on the track, you got to be brave. The way Skyline is designed can be considered very unusual, as the designers actually want you to drift the car. You have to know to trust the traction control and then just step on the gas when you are not suppose to use rear wheel drive cars.
Now, back to the topic. I don't think Lexus want to compete with the M cars right now, that will be extremely dumb to do. They need to first make sure that IS300 can threaten the 3 series in all area, and then go for a kill on the M3.

 

[LexusIS300]

Originally posted by Young:
One last point...the M5 is NOT faster 0-60 than the new M3. BMW now claims 4.8 seconds 0-60 for the E46 M3 and the number has been backed up by a couple of magazines. BMW claims 5.2s I think for the M5.

The E39 M5 times are 4.6 s (Evo) and 4.8 s (C&D) for 0-60 and these are traction limited, because of the weight. The top speed is ~185 MPH as compared to ~175 MPH for a E46 M3 (estimated from aerodynamic drag vs. HP). The track times (on curves) are identical as you have acknowledged.

 

[Young]

I've seen magazine numbers of 4.9s for the M5, but BMW's official claim is 5.2s. I wouldn't be surprised if some magazines managed better than the "official" 4.8s for the new M3. BMW numbers tend to be conservative.

 

[Young]

Originally posted by LexusIS300:
The E39 M5 times are 4.6 s (Evo) and 4.8 s (C&D) for 0-60 and these are traction limited, because of the weight.

The stars and planets must have been conjunction for EVO. The fact remains that BMW thinks the E46 M3 is faster 0-60 than the E39 M5. The numbers from BMW are 4.8s (M3) vs. 5.2s (M5). I'll tell you what, if you get your M5 and I get an M3, I'll race ya. ^_^




[This message has been edited by Young (edited October 27, 2000).]

 

[LexusIS300]

Originally posted by Young:
I'd go as far as to say that the M5 owners were 'disappointed' with their cars on the track. They just understeer way too much.

Because these people do NOT know how to tune the suspension and the tires. I would go as far as to say that these owners do NOT belong to the track........

The reported track times you acknowledged is clear evidence.

 

[LexusIS300]

Originally posted by Young:
If the M3 is a little too heavy, the M5 is a lot too heavy. Although I won't dispute your Nurburgring numbers, the two M5 owners I've talked to say that they preferred the M3 as a track car. At any rate, I'm torn between the M3 and the M5 for my next car. I'll probably put a deposit on both and make up my mind later. Or, if the NASDAQ cooperates, I'll get both. ^_^

The M5 is heavy. But it is designed to be a luxury, high-speed cruiser, NOT a sports coupe. And the track times are identical with the new M3, which is 600 lb lighter. So is it obvious that the M5 is better engineered?