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Discussion Starter #1
I made the following post on the Car and Driver Forum in regards to the BMW 330i beating the Lexus IS350. I wonder what the responses will be like.

Crester On The Car & Driver Forum said:
BMW Wins $35,000 Sport Sedan Comparison

After reading the $35K Sport Sedan comparison... I must really wonder what Car & Driver is doing. Firstly... how could the BMW 3-series win when it had numerous critical problems with the car? How can a car spin out of control during a brake test because of an ABS system failure, fail to start numerous times during the test, have A/C malfunction, etc. and STILL win the competition???

And that brings me to another point the BMW didn't actually "win" the competition. If you add up the numbers, there is a mistake in the BMW's column. Infact the ACTUAL total for the BMW is 212... which ties it with the Lexus IS350! In this situation the Lexus should obviously win since firstly it did not break down during the test, and secondly it is a better car overall.
 
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I'm sure many on here will say this has been beaten to a pulp. Going back for years and years C&D have gotten tons of letters saying the point system is wrong, they always reply that you cannot add the points...it is indeed BS.

As for the car breaking down, I never understood this either, or why they dont include real world numbers. Such as, reliabilty, MPG, warranty time in the shop. I could never understand why the corvette would always make their top 10 list when it had something like 15 silent recalls as well as other recalls.

I also could never understand why the had to put a corvette or bmw in every road test and compare it to everything under the sun, often times they would say bang for the buck a vette beats a Ferrari, now cmon. Who wouldnt want a prancing horse on their car. I used to have a Supra and I would beat 355's all the time, fact is he still had a Ferrari.

Lastly, like everything else people have moved to other sources, i.e. internet and etc and C&D has less relevelance and I believe I read somewhere less subscriptions, although i hate quoting heresay.
 

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Great post except for "...and secondly it is a better car overall." Wasnt that what C&D was trying to determine with the comparison?
 

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Thank you for not mentioning my.is or is300.net. That was a pretty embarassing post. The points contention (212 v. 212) has been rehashed here and it says that the editors do not tally the points and choose a winner based on point totals.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
magoo said:
Thank you for not mentioning my.is or is300.net. That was a pretty embarassing post. The points contention (212 v. 212) has been rehashed here and it says that the editors do not tally the points and choose a winner based on point totals.
How is it an embarrasing post? Every other number in that chart adds up... except for one section. It's obviously a mistake.

Or was it just a coincidence that the cars were ranked in the same order as their point totals???

Usually when somebody makes a row for a section called TOTAL it means the TOTAL SUM of the points in that section. Wouldn't you think so? :suspiciou

And even if you ignore the point totals. You must still question why a car that breaks down can win a test.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
HoustonLex said:
Great post except for "...and secondly it is a better car overall." Wasnt that what C&D was trying to determine with the comparison?
Obviously not since they picked the BMW. :pissed:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Has anybody sent a letter/e-mail to Car and Driver's editors commenting on this? What type of response did you get?
 

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Crester said:
How is it an embarrasing post? Every other number in that chart adds up... except for one section. It's obviously a mistake.

Or was it just a coincidence that the cars were ranked in the same order as their point totals???

Usually when somebody makes a row for a section called TOTAL it means the TOTAL SUM of the points in that section. Wouldn't you think so? :suspiciou

And even if you ignore the point totals. You must still question why a car that breaks down can win a test.
its how you phrased it. Presentation is everything, and you ignored specific instruction/description from the site.

I'm out.
 

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... Why is C and D's opinion on a car so important to you, are you letting them make your mind up for you wether or not the IS350 is a good car or not?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
elliot763 said:
... Why is C and D's opinion on a car so important to you, are you letting them make your mind up for you wether or not the IS350 is a good car or not?
No they will not determine what I think about the IS350... but they may heavily influence others. C&D is one of the three major automotive magazines in North America. I would hope that they would be able to do fair and un-biased testing.
 

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Seriously, nothing is un-biased.

Once you figure this out, you'll be much better off in life.

You havent even driven both cars, so how do you know they are biased. Seems more like you're ignoring your own biases.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
magoo said:
Seriously, nothing is un-biased.

Once you figure this out, you'll be much better off in life.

You havent even driven both cars, so how do you know they are biased. Seems more like you're ignoring your own biases.
I've driven the 330i... I will drive the IS350 as soon as possible. But I am also basing my statement on the article itself.

But yeah... I gotta accept the world is not necessarily a nice place.
 

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Crester said:
I've driven the 330i... I will drive the IS350 as soon as possible. But I am also basing my statement on the article itself.

But yeah... I gotta accept the world is not necessarily a nice place.
Crester, I gotta agree with Magoo and say that you definitely have a big IS350 bias for having not driven one yet. As I mentioned in the Taste of Lexus thread, I'm a die-hard Toyota fan - having owned 8 toyotas and an 01 IS300 (eshift) and an 02 IS300 (5sp) in the past.

I drove the IS350 and the BMW330i multiple times at the latest taste of lexus event in NY. I have above average driving skills from over a year of high speed driver training from the military.

The new 330i is clearly a better performing vehicle. From a driving standpoint, it hit every corner as I intended and the steering feel was very intuitive and connected. There is a lot of communication between the road, the car and the driver that the IS350 simply lacked.

Under the same level of exertion, the IS350 floated with noticeable body-roll. I consistently overshot the apex on corners with the IS350 and had to compensate by dropping back on the throttle before entering my turns. With the 330i, it was easy to plot a path and execute the turns flawlessly.

I suspect that C&D really emphasizes the actual driving experience over other aspects of the vehicles. In that regard and after my experience driving both aggressively back to back, I concur with their ranking.

With that said, I really liked the IS350 and will still likely buy one. I think it looks better than anything in its class, is more suitable for my everyday usage, has more creature-comfort features and is a whole lot more reliable in the long run. Since I won't be pushing my car anywhere near the edge of its handling capabilities and since I've had many years of problem-free Toyota and Lexus ownership, the IS is for me.

I don't think the IS350 is a better car than the 330i or vice versa. They are both excellent cars that do just about everything well, but have a variety of differences that give each a different character.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
MorpheIS... I guess you are right in saying C&D is only talking about driving experience.

When I drove the BMW 330i... I did not feel connected to the road at all times. The car seemed to do what I wanted... but after it decided to "accept" my desired steering input. I will try to drive an IS350 in the next few weeks.

This does not change my opinion in the statement I posted at the C&D forums though... as that was based on the article itself.
 

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Crester said:
MorpheIS... I guess you are right in saying C&D is only talking about driving experience.

When I drove the BMW 330i... I did not feel connected to the road at all times. The car seemed to do what I wanted... but after it decided to "accept" my desired steering input. I will try to drive an IS350 in the next few weeks.

This does not change my opinion in the statement I posted at the C&D forums though... as that was based on the article itself.
I'm not totally sure what sort of conditions surrounded your BMW 330i test drive, but I think there is no question that the drive precision and handling of the 330i beats the IS350 hands down.

I want to love the IS350, probably as much as you do. It's an outstanding car in almost every regard, but I have to give credit to BMW where credit is due.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
MorpheIS said:
I'm not totally sure what sort of conditions surrounded your BMW 330i test drive, but I think there is no question that the drive precision and handling of the 330i beats the IS350 hands down.

I want to love the IS350, probably as much as you do. It's an outstanding car in almost every regard, but I have to give credit to BMW where credit is due.
Some people I've complained to say it was Active Steering that caused me to feel the way I do about the driving experience.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Here are some responses to my post on the Car and Driver forums

Mtl_A4 said:
While I understand the desire of the editors to include the 3-series, I actually think from a journalistic POV they should have removed the 3-series from the test. Not make it lose, but it definitely shouldn't win.

Don't get me wrong, I actually got to drive many variations of the E90 at a premier event, and I do think its better than all of the competition I have driven (which doesn't include the S60R, the new Saab 9-3 2.8T, or the IS350), but in the end it doesn't make sense to choose a car that wasn't working properly. I assume you are using experience for other test to measure your opinion but I don't think that's fair.
The Z06 said:
Absolutely agree. It makes you wonder if the writers and editors aren't "in bed" with BMW. If you have a car with those types of problems and the the KIA or Ford badges on them, they'd automatically throw them out for being a POS. Yet somehow, BMW delivers a POS and it wins?

No, no bias here (or payoff?)!
BadMINI said:
The Z06 said:
Absolutely agree. It makes you wonder if the writers and editors aren't "in bed" with BMW. If you have a car with those types of problems and the the KIA or Ford badges on them, they'd automatically throw them out for being a POS. Yet somehow, BMW delivers a POS and it wins?

No, no bias here (or payoff?)!
Well, Z06, I have to agree with you, but I also believe this too. I believe Car and Driver, BMW, and Honda have been involved in some threesomes lately. If they are biased for BMW, then they sure are for Honda as well.

Syco Timmy

"Don't laugh at my car. Your daughter may be inside !!"
MX793 said:
I'd like to know how they justified calling it a $35K comparo when at least half the field cost over $40K as tested. Heck, nearly half the field had base prices of over $35K.
Zcarnut said:
I agree.They need to test a 325 instead IMO.
Instead cars that cost $6-$8k MORE than others win!
Imagine that!
 
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