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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well I finally had a chance to drop my car off at the shop to have the fix the misfire. Well they can't fix it through the GReddy emanage so they pull out the plugs. Every single plug is cracked and they can't find all the pieces. Car is running like total shit and idling like crap with trac blinking and engine light on. The shop said the plugs were shit and were hotter than the factory plugs which makes no sense for forced induction. They replaced them with cooler plugs and car is still f**ked. They are doing a compression check on Monday but think pieces of the cracked plugs may have gotten into one or more of the valves and bent them. They said if thats the case I am looking at thousands in labor to pull the head apart. This is no half ass garage, there was a 911 turbo, Testerossa, and E55 AMG having work done there so there expertise is not an issue. But why would Prolex include hotter plugs than stock and why would they crack? Any simpler problems it could be so I can sleep tonight? They also mentioned it could be a simple coil or injector problem. Anyways this sucks! Oh and for all you out there with the Vortech REPLACE all the clamps with good ones. On the dyno the clamp holding the piping on the back of the S/C broke and they also noticed several others that were failing.
Dean :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :whine: :whine: :whine:
 

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Damn... did you do any research on your own with respect to the plugs to verify that they are indeed colder or hotter than stock? Can you post the brand and model of plug you cracked please?

Also... I never trust shops that fix hig end cars. they usually RAPE owners in costs because guys who buy porsches and ferraris usually dont know jack about fixing them, so that makes them a prime target.

I would on the other hand like to see pics of this destroyed plug if possible?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Normally I would agree as far as the high end shops, but these guys will work on anything and are not expensive. They spent the whole day tuning, driving, and under the hood trying to fix the problem and charged me $100 including changing the plugs and tuning and new clamps. I saw every plug and the ceramic was just gone or cracked. They came with the kit and I believe the are NGK but I think you could look them up on Prolex's website. :cry:
 

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Typically what causes spark plugs to break is detonation. If you were detonating bad, this would undoubtedly destroy your plugs. What color where they? Were the tips white?

Have them do a compression test. This is one way to find some short block problems...
 

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Mr. Negative
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I agree w/ Wxman and Bdr.. You NEED to do a compression test, but just as important as that is that you need to do a leakdown test. This will show all issues. From you description you must of had a lot of detonation. If your engine is/was detonating you should not of been driving it. That is very bad and is sure to destroy the bottom end.
 

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A car detonates when the A/F is too lean. The air in the chamber is already hot and when it is compressed in the cylinder it gets so hot that it instantaneously before the spark plug fires. This is detonation. The bad thing is that it will destroy your plugs, it also can damage valves because they are closed at this point in the process. If the plugs are damaged, there are two things that could have happened:

1. It got luck and just went un-impeded out the cylinders and out the exhaust.

2. It got stuck somewhere momentarily and with things moving at 1000's of rpms it does damage very fast.

I hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So since I had no misfires before tuning the same guys who are trying to fix it may have "leaned" it out to much during initial tuning? :x
 

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Mr. Negative
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you should search to know what this is.

In it's most basic explanation, detonation is the preignition of the fuel mixture because of excess heat and/or excess pressure for the mixture in the compression chamber. Also could be cause by a lean condition. In other words the air/fuel mixture is ignited before the spark. It causes a shock tothe piston and engine. Minor detonation is commonly refered to as knock and pre-ignition. In the lower revs a little will not harm you too much. It will eventually build up carbon and such and then cause greater problems. In the higher revs detonation even in a minute amount of time can blow the engine.

you really need to research this stuff. I can't stress how much everyone needs to understand these things if they are going to f/i be it turbo or s/c or no2 there car. As gte said to me once, either you have to know about your car and what you've done to it or you need to have real deep pockets so you don't have to care about it.

AC556k said:
What is/causes detonation? :-?
 

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AC556k said:
So since I had no misfires before tuning the same guys who are trying to fix it may have "leaned" it out to much during initial tuning? :x
Just from your description, it sounds like the misfires were a direct result of the way the car was tuned. It appears that the car was tuned too lean resulting in detonation. The detonation damaged the plugs, which would be the cause of any damage to the engine (likely). Then the damaged plugs were not able to function properly and caused the car to misfire and likely go into limp mode.
 

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IS_Dude, you are right on here my friend. People think you can throw a turbo on the IS300 and speed off into nevernever land. Our engine and our ecu are NA stock. To change the car over to F/I changes everything about the car. The way you drive, the way you perform maintenance, your awareness while you drive, etc all change. You should be able to tell when the early signs are there that things might go wrong. IMO learning on the internet is simply not enough. You need to talk to people whther it is on the phone or in person. Ask questions, look under the hood, and most importantly listen.

I was the biggest newbie when it came to turbos when I got this car. Honestly, I remember when I looked under the hood of my car I pointed to the thing on the piping and asked what it was. Jarrett told me it was the Blow Off Valve. That is how rookie I was to this. However, before I left, Jarrett spent a while with me driving the car and teaching me about the car and what to look for. I had changed plugs and oil before, but never F/I stuff. He showed me how to pull the plugs and check them. What to look for on the plugs. What to look for on the EGT and Fuel Pressure guage. Sounds to be aware of and was available when I needed help via email or phone. To Jarrett and PHR's credit, my car turned 18 months on boost this month and is at nearly 30,000 miles. Everyone knows the specs of my car and the huge power it produces, so I will save that for another day.

The point here is to learn and don't try to do it overnight. The resources are enormous here. I personally speak to guys like Freelance, Fairuza, Trekster, 10SecondIS, BK9, DT1313, GTE,, OnyxIS, etc. either through instant messenger but more importantly many on the phone. We share experiences, I learn from them, and we develop friendships. There are the resources here to gain the knowledge base you will need to have a positive F/I experience and I would recommend to every member taking the time to do the same thing.
 

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Mr. Negative
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Wxman you have explained fully what I only eluded to. This stuff is so important to know and understand. EGT's, a/f ratios, sounds, the mechanical workings, etc..... After all when you drive away from the tuner it is your car and your money. If you don't understand the workngs you are just risking everything. None of the kits warrant not worrying about the car and just driving it with no regard. Not the best and not the worst. Look what happened to Ethan, that was just tragic. I didn't know the details, but it's an example in this whole scenario.

AC556k, this isn't meant as condescending to you just a general PSA to everyone. I sincerely hope you don't have any problems as that sucks and is a pain in the ass.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yea, I get it I suppose. But I nor anyone can know everything about cars or tuners or engines. I put my trust and money in someone elses hands. Yes so now I understand a little more about the workings of an engine and the potential consequences of adding F/I. But I buy a good reputable kit and take it to a good reputable tuner, what could I have really done to have avoided the situation. I will ask them about the possibility of them causing this and hopefully we can work something out. One last question...If they do have to rip apart the engine are/should I make any enhancements to it that might help since most of it is labor? What I mean is like bigger headgasket, cams, port polish?
I don't feel any better but thanks foe enlightening me.
Dean :cry:
 

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AC556k said:
Yea, I get it I suppose. But I nor anyone can know everything about cars or tuners or engines. I put my trust and money in someone elses hands. Yes so now I understand a little more about the workings of an engine and the potential consequences of adding F/I. But I buy a good reputable kit and take it to a good reputable tuner, what could I have really done to have avoided the situation. I will ask them about the possibility of them causing this and hopefully we can work something out. One last question...If they do have to rip apart the engine are/should I make any enhancements to it that might help since most of it is labor? What I mean is like bigger headgasket, cams, port polish?
I don't feel any better but thanks foe enlightening me.
Dean :cry:
AC, if I was in your position, I would feel like someone owes me money for what happened. I would demand it be fixed because you couldn't have tinkered with the A/F setting to make this happen. Someone messed up plain and simple. I would need to know more info though to give my full opinion on the situation, but this doesn't seem like it is your fault.

With that said, if you take the engine apart, you can do a headgasket spacer, piston, rods, valves, springs and retainers, etc.
 

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Another big factor in causing pre-detonation is timing. If you're running too much timing then the fuel mixture gets lit too soon, causing the piston to fight it's way up to TDC. I think the number one killer of FI cars is too much timing.

You should ask the tuner if they added timing through the Emanage. They should be taking it away, seeing that they are starting with an NA map that runs too much timing for FI.
 

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Hey AC556k.

I just got back from tuning my car last night and discovered some interesting tidbits.

When dynoing the car, we noticed that the car started to run lean right at 6000rpm to the tune of around 14:1. We dumped as much fuel as we could around the 6000rpm point using the Greddy Emanage piggyback unit but we quickly hit the limit of what the Greddy Emanage was able to add fuel wise.

The tuner stated that based on what was provided in the SC kit, that the Greddy E-manage might not be robust enough to handle this situation.

I'll ask Mike to shed more light on whether or not the E-manage is capable of getting this situation rectified. Did you talk to Mike about a new base map for the Vortech SC/Toyomoto header combo?

Suggestions I received from the tuner and Kanine21 in the meantime were:

1. Don't drive over 6000rpm until a solution was found. <-- This is lame but I can live with this for now.

2. More powerful fuel pump to increase the fuel pressure to possibly assist with the leaning out issue

3. More robust piggyback or stand alone unit.

If you want any more detail on anything, don't hesitate to contact me. Our setup as far as the kit and hardware are concerned are almost identical. PM me if you want my number.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this fella. Good luck.

-Mofo
 
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