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Discussion Starter #1
what does torque measure? explain..

how many of you are buying the is300 for performance? for looks?
how much does the is300 weigh?
isnt the is300 more of a pimpin ride than a racer? i'm starting to get interested in a integra typeR.. what do u guys think? quicker and lighter, cheaper.. maybe in 10 years..
 

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>what does torque measure? explain..

There's a fairly lengthy discussion on torque in this forum somewhere, it was pretty good. Better than any answer I could give you.

>how many of you are buying the is300 for
>performance? for looks?

Both.

>how much does the is300 weigh?

Check the Lexus website, any of the pricing links on the home page or the Summary of Available Information posts.

>isnt the is300 more of a pimpin ride than a
>racer?

Yes. I suppose so.

>I'm starting to get interested in a integra
>typeR.. what do u guys think? quicker and
>lighter, cheaper.. maybe in 10 years..

Not quite the same class, but sure it's lighter and cheaper. It's also FWD. Personally, I'm not interested in cars (engines) that have to get to 8,000 rpms to generate peak horsepower (Integra Type R, S2000, Civic SI). I mean, I like pushing my car hard (I also have a miata with a high-revving engine) but I also like to go fast without having to push the engine past 6k to do it. The turbo on my miata helps this and the extra cylinders and displacement on the IS help this too.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
interesting.. so you're telling me integra is slow at low revs? beside, wats the point of vtec if ur not gonna rev high, i guess ur right.. completely different class of cars.. but integra is faster, no?
 

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I will try to add to what was already said

> what does torque measure? explain..

Rather than go into a technical discussion - the torque curve bascially tells you how "busy" the car will get when you step on the gas at a given RPM. A car with a big turbo or a cam geared for high RPM doesn't do much if you put the car in 5th gear at 20mph and stomp on the gas. The engine sound changes but you have to wait for revs to build before it starts to feel peppy. A car with 218lb/ft @ 3800 rpms (on the other hand) will "bolt" whenever you hit the gas.

An automatic transmission pretty much kills the excitement with an engine that has the torque peak way up high.

> how many of you are buying the is300 for performance? for looks?

Both...

> how much does the is300 weigh?
3270lbs. Quite a bit more than an Integra. No matter what people say you do feel the burden of lugging around extra weight when driving a heavier car. I am sure the IS300 handles very well, but it is a shame about all the weight.

The Integra GS-R is a nice car, but it isn't really a true racer because it is front wheel drive.

Also, the shifter isn't the best (IMHO) and you have to really work it alot to get the performance out of that car.

If you want a comfortable car that goes well without much effort then the IS300 is the winner. If you want a car to practice (hone) your race-car-driver urges then the Integra will probably excite you more.

Do yourself a favor and consider the Toyota MR2-Spyder...
 

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>so you're telling me integra is slow at low
>revs?

Most (if not all) high-revving small engines (~2.5L and under) produce peak horsepower and torque at the upper end of their RPM range. The S2000, with the highest horsepower per liter of any normally aspirated engine does produces its peak HP (240) at 8300 RPM. That's motorcycle engine territory. Peak torque (153) comes on at 7500 RPM.

What all this means is that unless you practically dump the clutch and shift at or near redline ALL THE TIME - you will not get close to the stated 0-60 performance - which can get quite aggravating.

From driving a miata around for years, you kinda of get a feel for that style of driving if you know what I mean...

Don't discout the MR2-S's "measly" 138 HP (more than my miata when it was NA) either, it weighs 400 lbs less than the Integra Type R.
 

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Hey TEG, I think the guy said an Integra Type R, not the GS-R. The Integra Type R is supposed to be a great car even though it is FWD. And peak hp and torque are kind of useless. It depends on how broad the band is. With the Integra you are going to have to keep the engine spinning above like 6K to get it really going. Honda VTEC engines are notorious for no torque in the lower rpm range. I guess that's why VTEC-i is coming out.

Also, on the MR2/Miata thing...the MR2 puts more power to the wheels than the Miata. Even though the rated power is the same there is a difference.
 

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Integra Type R is really just like an Integra GS-R but with an even more rev happy engine. Anything I said about the GS-R having a "top heavy" torque curve applies extra to the "type R" model.

The difference with the MR2-Spyder is a flatter torque curve so you don't have to rev the engine quite as much to "get happy".
Also the mid engine gives great balance.
The Miata does have a more sophisticated double wishbone suspension (compared to the Macphereson struts on the MR2-Spyder).
 

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Just cause a car is FWD doesn't cut it out of the "true racing" car catagory. Most of the Import Racing Scene is built with FWD CRX's, civics and integras and even though they can hit low times it means that they aren't true racers?? that BS if I ever heard it...I would like to see the qualifications list to be a true racer see if I can qualify to be some of the elite few. If your talking just pure STOCK cars as being true racing cars there aren't many out there that could hold their own against a real racing car. They maybe a SPORTS cars but a true racing car I don't think so
 

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The best front wheel drive drag cars are still alot slower than the best rear wheel drive ones. Yeah you can put a wheelie bar on a turbo CRX and get pretty good times (like 8 sec 1/4) but it still won't beat a hot RWD setup.

Out on the track the best rear wheel drive cars also have no fear from any front drive cars.

Do you think there is a reason why Maclaren F1, Porsche 911, Ferrari F360, Lamborghini Diablo (etc, etc) are all rear wheel drive?!
Why doesn't BMW have a front wheel drive car?

Front wheel drive was an invention for fuel economy, safety and low cost - not for racing.
 

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HIBBoyScott, you'll notice I said the MR-2 had more horsepower than the Miata...

Now when we talk about racing, we should specify if we're talking about drag racing or real racing
around a track with turns and stuff. FWD cars certainly do well at drags - you've got the weight of the engine over the drive wheels! However, I would not call a FWD car a true racer. Although the Neon does pretty well against the Miata in autocross.
 

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When a car accelerates the "weight bias" shifts rearwards. Front wheel drive cars have a real problem with maintaining traction in high horsepower drag racing applications.

How many top fuel dragsters are front wheel drive?
 

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Webmaster - as I am sure you know - the later Miatas started getting 140hp... So the 138hp MR2-Spyder is 2hp (nominal) less than the latest Miata.

*But* The VVT-i equipped MR2-Spyder has a flatter torque curve so it accelerates better when at lower revs.
 

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Teg:

You don't read many import magazines do you? I don't care if a car is a AWD, RWD, FWD but to say that a car isn't a "true" racing car just because of the setup is just plain ignorant. Papadakis or Bergenholtz ring a bell? It takes a little more than a wheelie bar to make it go fast..but i guess all their tuning knowledge and their 8 or 9 sec times still don't cut it huh since they are FWD "fake" racers right? 8 or 9 second passes are good for an import....i think you are thinking domestic racing where the times are a lot lower than 8 or 9 sec. Common mistake by lots, the Import Scene and theDomestic Scene are two different scenes. A FWD car would be in the Import Scene running against RWD Supras and RX-7's and those FWD cars give the RWD cars a run for their money. RWD cars have been around for a while and i think it's the FWD cars aren't afraid to run against the RWD cars just to edit what you said before.
 

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TEG, you're right of course on the weight bias. It's obvious I'm not a drag racer.
I certainly wouldn't drive a miata if I was!

As for the MR2, you're right too, but I was thinking of my year Miata (94), which factory states at 128 hp. At the dyno it showed 100 RWHP. After the turbo at 6psi, it showed 150 RWHP. (dyno charts) When I get the car rebuilt, it'll probably be running 12psi, so 200 RWHP is no problem. (Other 12-15psi miatas get to 250, some close to 300)

The next year miata is getting some kind of variable valve timing (99-00 had a two-stage variable intake only) and I think gets bumped to 140 hp like you said.
 

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About weight bias...

When you stomp on the gas in a high performance car you can generally see the car "pitch back"... From the driver's seat you see the hood rise up. Your drive wheels are basically acting like a lever with the power "twisting" the car back onto the rear wheels. With FWD you reduce the force being applied to the front tires and they can start to slip more easily. Now (in part) to counteract the propensity for the front wheels (in a front wheel drive car) to slip, designers often put alot of the car's weight on the front wheels. You might even see things like 62% weight on front wheels and 38% on the rears. This will help traction but makes that car pretty unbalanced on a quick slalom. Handling suffers.

Maybe it is a new world (and the laws of physics have changed!) so us "old school", "old farts" can keep driving our outdated rear wheel drive cars and you "new school" people can have your front wheel drive "racers". (OK - I envy your gas mileage)

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FYI: Most police forces insist on having rear wheel drive cars.

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I am just waiting for someone to jump in here and tell us losers how all-wheel-drive is better than having only 2 driven wheels.

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In the world of 0-60 > 7 seconds most of these debates are academic since we are unlikely to get into many tire spinning sessions. If I ever find a good aftermarket supercharger that gets me close to 300hp then I am going to be very thankful that I have rear wheel drive and limited slip differential.


[This message has been edited by TEG (edited June 04, 2000).]
 

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I can't believe we are even discussing whether RWD or FWD is better. This guy is going to rewrite the physics books for us?
 

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Brad:

If your talking about me, I never did say that FWD is better than RWD. I may have said that a FWD car could beat a RWD but simple fact the fastest RWD would smoke the fastest FWD car. But in the import racing world thats full of 4 bangers, V6's FWD, AWD and RWD cars the RWD cars don't nessisarily dominate over the FWD cars. TEG made a statement that FWD cars aren't True Race Cars, I was just sticking up for all the FWD import tuners out there because there isn't anything that says what is a true race car or not and when a FWD car does beat a RWD car it's not a fluke accident. They both are tuned TRUE race cars no matter what the setup is(rwd, fwd, awd)....THAT was my point. Read my previous posts, it's what i have BEEN saying.
 

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Well, when I have been to racing events (I worked at some racetracks for a few years) the "open" events where they don't specify which type of drive you must have are pretty much all rear wheel drive. Sometimes someone brings in all-wheel-drive but they tend to get banned (because sometimes they are just too-good!) Anyone who tried to bring in a front wheel drive car would pretty much give up out of embarasment. Sure there were some front-wheel drive only events (so at least there was some place for those cars) but some of us track workers would scoff at those nose heavy cars going around the corners on 3 wheels bobbing up and down trying to find traction.

Sure - the import scene is thriving, but a big part of that is making your car really showy and doing wild burnouts with smoking tires (where you actually don't want alot of traction). Those guys trying to come up with new tricks to get their FWD cars to the fastest 1/4 are fighting a losing battle.

Now the Acura Integra is a pretty fun car, but there is a reason why the "king Acuras" (NSX and S2000) are both rear wheel drive...
 
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