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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-20-2017, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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NA-t notes...

I'll keep editing and adding additional info. Compiling a significant amount from other threads to give an all-in-one answers page. The first section is the "NA-t Bible" and the second is more of the information I made notes of.

I'm going to do a little something here, because we is300 owners deserve some answers sometimes... I'm sure there are many of you who can get as frustrated as I do researching the 2jz-ge only to find decades old information. Most of this is going to be for myself to keep note of everything, but if course I'll put it out there for anybody else who wants to read.

If anyone feels that this shouldn't be here, moderators just take it off if you need to, but I do think this is helpful information for anyone getting into the is300 world. So everyone who reads this knows, this is a large excerpt of the (probably well known by many) na-T Bible posted by 2jttz on supraforums 5 years ago.

**BUT I do want to throw some info in that can be hard to find or even just basic help, and take some unnecessary info out. Stuff can be hard to find, even when using the glorious search function. Whatever I think will help myself and others to have in my notes. Anyone and everyone please post anything you think should be added or changed. If you would like to see the original, head here: goo.gl/1LMpCV

2JZGE NA-t BIBLE

Hopefully, by being on this website, you understand the basics of the 2jz series of engines. **Technically there are 3 for the USDM market:

-GE Non VVTI
-GE VVTI
-GTE Non VVTI

All come standard with DOHC, 24valves, EFI, etc... what else can you expect from Toyota? **Of course the most common swap for the is300 being the aristo 2jzgte which is JDM and not USDM**

Differences between the GE and GTE (not comparing either VVTI editions):
-Most obvious difference to anyone familiar with engines is the TURBOS. The GE has none, thats what the 'T' in GTE means.

-Another is the style of intake manifold, the GE has a manifold developed for more torque development in the lower-part of the rpm band vs the GTE's short runner type. The GE doesnt have more torque; its just that it develops more than it would if it had a GTE-style intake manifold. Hope you knew that.

-Compression, the GE runs a 10.5:1 compression ratio and the GTE runs a 8.5:1 compression ratio. The differences are obtained through a thicker headgasket (.2mm for GE vs 1.6mm for GTE) and lower compression pistons on the GTE. The higher compression allows the GE motor to make the most of its power since it lacks turbos to begin with. **Yes this does mean the rods are EXACTLY the same length (but not thickness in vvti, as the vvti rods are thinner than the others), ge and gte, vvti and non vvti, took me a while to confirm that 100%. Note that the vvti rods WILL need to be replaced with GTE or forged rods when going for larger boost numbers. The breaking point is often stated to be at about 500hp at the crank, but this is a subjective number. My tuner has personally seen a GE VVTi run 700hp with stock rods... but I wouldn't risk anything like that.**

-Injectors and Airflow sensors, the GE runs 330cc top-feed high impedance Denso-style injectors and uses a Karman Vortex air-metering sensor to read how much air volume is being injested. The GTE runs 540cc side-feed low impedance injectors (though uses a resistor pak to raise the impedance for the ECU's sake)... measured through a hotwire MAF sensor. The GE's airflow restriction is around 450hp from the stock AFM and the GTE is around 650-700hp depending on several factors.

-The heads are slightly different. The GTE has larger intake ports, the ge has larger exhaust ports. You can read about flow bench results here: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/flo...w-results.html

-The exhaust manifold and intake manifolds port spacing and studs are completely different and will not work with one another unless some machining is involved with the manifolds themselves. There are people who have successfully grafted the upper part of the GTE intake manifold onto the lower part of the GE manifold.

These are just motor differences, there are many little others such as oil squirters, oil feed/return lines, transmissions, etc.

Now onto Similarities:
Both the GE and GTE bottom ends are VERY strong. The only difference being the pistons themselves. Thats right, the rods and crankshaft are the SAME parts (apart from thinner rods and ringlands in vvti versions)!!! The 2jz motor itself was DESIGNED to be turbocharged from the beginning and is built VERY strongly from the factory. No one yet knows the limits of a GE setup, though there are several 1000whp setups on the GTE with the stock bottom-end. Dave H uses a non vvti GE motor and ran a 9sec 1/4 mile time with the stock GE block ( a spare 220k mile motor to be specific!)
All in all, it is very doubtful that you will need to build your motor when designing a NA-T setup unless you're gunning for ridiculous amounts of power. The stock cams are roughly the SAME.
There are a few things to keep in mind when deciding what you want to do. The biggest decision RIGHT NOW is whether you want to build a DIY kit or order a pre-built one from a reputable shop.

Going the DIY
is very rewarding and you will learn more about your engine than you thought possible. I personally went this route TWICE on my first two setups on my SC300. But I had the typical problems.
-The Price is a good bit cheaper. Face it, you can source your own parts off ebay, used items off of SupraForums and Clublexus classifieds, etc and probably build a kit for much cheaper IF you get everything. This isnt always the case
-The installation is a bit more difficult since you're putting together parts that werent necessarily designed for one another and may require some fabrication
-Used parts dont last as long and a lot of times they just arent as good of a quality as new stuff is (new stuff is ALWAYS coming out for the GE car nowadays).
**Make sure you do you research on turbos now that Gen2 has come out. A breakthrough was made recently in CNC machining that allows manufacturers to build turbos a little differently... basically Gen2 can put out bigger numbers while staying the same size.**

Buying a Kit
is much simpler and easier to follow. You will still learn a lot about your motor if you install your kit yourself and still have the oppurtunity to purchase some used parts if you can find good deals, etc. Buying a kit you KNOW that it will work correctly if its a reputable shop such as BoostLogic, Sound Performance, PHR, Dave H, etc. People have already done them, posted their results and their problems so you can be ready for it when its your turn. You can purchase a turbo kit, fuel kit, aem kit, and be done with it and have a monster on your hands. They literally come with everything you need... being from the other side, I can tell you that this is an immense PLUS. It doesnt quite sound like it... but having done it twice, this is the way I will do it a 3rd time.

Parts in a Typical Basic NA-T kit (note this is not everything you need)
Turbo manifold (there are log and header types, headers flow for more power, but spool slower)
Blow off valve (It helps to relieve charge piping pressure reducing turbo surge expanding the life of your turbo, Get one.... )
Wastegate (bigger you go, the more control you have and less chances for spikes and creep)
Downpipe (connects to your exhaust)
Intake pipe (connects from your turbo inlet to your filter or AFM)
Oil feed and drain lines (feed and drain oil to/from the turbo)
Turbocharger (large varieties of these, this is what makes boost!)

In the basic kit you usually run directly off the wastegate spring. Most kits keep you running on the stock compression levels (10.5:1 remember?) in the first "stage" or two, until you get serious about power anyways. This results in quicker spoolup and better off-boost response but you cannot run as much boost without risking serious damage to your motor.

-10.5:1 compression limits you to around 5psi without fiddling with your ignition timing (stock timing has a big "spike" of advance around 4000-4500rpms that will cause detonation if running more than 5psi and the base timing is not retarded 3-4 degrees)
-stock injectors will also limit you powerwise. I've seen several setups make OVER 400whp on the stock fuel setup (upgraded fuel pump) but its still best to upgrade them (and with a way to control them too -- SAFC, emanage, MAP ECU, AEM standalone, etc)... generally I wouldnt go over 350whp with the stock 330s.
-intercooler options, some kits come with some dont, most of the lower-priced ones dont and you are left to fend for yourself in the intercooler arena... you NEED one to run more than 5 or 6psi reliably

What you REALLY need for a well balanced kit
-strong turbo manifold, either a strong cast unit or a strong (IE 321 Stainless Steel) tubular header manifold... Dave H's manifold runs via Weld Els and it is VERY strong and beefy. His manifold is more of a hybrid, not really a log and not really a header. ALSO the Xs power manifolds seem to work good for the price, but it is a more cheaply made manifold.

-turbocharger to suit your powerband preferences (a later discussion perhaps?). Most people go with a T04E or PTE style turbo that makes around 400whp at 10psi of boost. Used or new holset turbos are a fairly good cost effective option as well.

-35mm wastegate, Tial or HKS brands are good stuff. Many kits are running 38 and 40mm gates, which is fine, they cost more. Depending on how much power you'll be making with your turbo, you need to decide what to run unless a kit-maker already picks one.

-fuel and a method of controlling that fuel to supply enough for your power needs. On more basic setups I recommend the Emanage blue. Affordable and can tune your car very nicely. Most basic kits can make good power with MKIII Supra Turbo injectors. They are also top feed (but low impedance, need resistor box or inline resistors) and denso style but flow 440cc instead of 330. The Lexus V8 AFM modification is affordable and can make the 440s easily tunable with a simple fuel controller. Anther rout (very cost effective) is to run the GTE ecu which can get you to around 400-500hp depending on which Gte ecu model you choose

**That pretty much sums up the "NA-t Bible" Hope you liked it.

The rest of the car....

ECU--
Of course Toyota needs to be difficult, so you can't really just flash the ECU to tune. Piggybags even have issues since the stock ECU wants to correct everything the piggyback is doing. Standalones are the best option, and of course you'll want to go this route for big power anyway, but of course Toyota was also using a unique gauge system so if you use a standalone as the name implies, you'll lose a lot of functionality in the rest of your electrical equipment. This will change as ECU manufacturers develop better CAN-BUS protocol handling. For this reason, standalone ECUs are most commonly run in parallel with the stock ECU on the is300, so the new one will handle Air and Fuel, while the stock one handles everything else. There are a few manufacturers that make PnP kits to run on the first gen IS. AEM and Haltech are good ones with factory PnP harnesses included, but you can find harnesses from Boomslang for both of those standalones.

Transmission--
If you're using the stock manual tranny, you actually won't be able to handle as much torque as you would using the auto. Some number less than 350 pound feet of torque at the crank, not really sure since I bought auto to have a little more stock strength. There are a few trannys out there people are swapping to, right now my plan is an R154.

The stock auto tranny will "hold" around 350-400 pounds of torque from the crank. Hold in quotes because who knows how long it will actually hold. If you want to be playing around with those power numbers, you should consider doing a valve body upgrade to the transmission. Even then, you might want to swap for something stronger. Either way, neither are worth keeping if you're going for big power.

Turbo choice--
Remember that whatever turbo you get will have a specific flange. If/when you upgrade, you're going to want a common flange, making the swap about 300x easier. As I mentioned in the notes in the NA-t bible, turbo manufacturers have made some breakthroughs. Larger single scroll turbos can spool up a lot quicker and defeats any idea of using any kind of twin turbo setup. In other words, do some research and buy a good single turbo that will spool quickly, there are a lot out there.

My rule of thumb is to never buy off eBay... but it's your car.

Differential--
If you're making a lot of power, send it to both wheels. First check to see if you have a limited slip from the factory:

"look on the sticker inside the driver door that has the vin number. on the bottom left corner of it it should say like..."a/tm:B##X". if the X after the numbers is b or c, u have lsd. a = no lsd." -Ashhong

If you don't, you have a few options. The LSD that comes factory on the FR-S/BRZ actually fits pretty well. There have been several posts about it so you can look up what people have done to install it. Looks like you just needs some spacers on some of the mounting bolts. Keep in mind that the FR-S version actually does have a slightly larger final drive, about 4.10

because racecar

Last edited by jayspkr; 05-16-2018 at 11:36 PM. Reason: Just adding a link for info
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayspkr View Post
-The heads are slightly different. Some say the GE flows better than the GTE, though no concrete numbers have come from a flowbench to prove it. The GTE motor has larger intake ports on the head whereas the GE has larger exhaust ports on the head. You make your own decisions.
im surpised you wrote all of that up and have not seen this:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/flo...w-results.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayspkr View Post
Thats right, the rods and crankshaft are the SAME parts!!!
i am also fairly certain the rods are thicker on the GTE. why would people go out of their way to source GTE rods if they are the same thing?

i read through everything extremely quickly, but it sounds like some of this info will need to be edited. seems like a good start though! it can be frustrating finding a thread exactly what you are after and everything contained in it is dead or the parts mentioned are no longer available. im glad this forum is getting traffic as it seemed like it was dead for a while.
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Last edited by mesooohoppy; 03-01-2018 at 12:02 PM.
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 02:19 PM
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Can the OP update this thread. A lot of the information only pertains to the GE non VVTi not the GE VVTi that is in our cars.

This information is incorrect for the engine found in our cars.
Quote:
Hopefully, by being on this website, you understand the basics of the 2jz series of engines. In the United States, Toyota released "technically" 2 versions of the 2jz motor, the GTE and the GE.... both come standard with DOHC, 24valves, EFI, etc... what else can you expect from Toyota? **Of course the most common swap for the is300 being the aristo 2jzgte which is JDM and not USDM**
Wrong Technically there are 3 for the USDM market:
GE Non VVTI
GE VVTI
GTE Non VVTI

Quote:
Compression, the GE runs a 10:1 compression ratio and the GTE runs a 8.5:1 compression ratio. The differences are obtained through a thicker headgasket (.2mm for GE vs 1.6mm for GTE) and lower compression pistons on the GTE. The higher compression allows the GE motor to make the most of its power since it lacks turbos to begin with. **Yes this does mean the rods are EXACTLY the same length, ge and gte, vvti and non vvti, took me a while to confirm that 100%. Note that the vvti rods WILL need to be replaced with GTE or forged rods when going for larger boost numbers. The breaking point is often stated to be at about 500hp at the crank, but this is a subjective number. My tuner has personally seen a GE VVTi run 700hp with stock rods... but I wouldn't risk anything like that.**
The rods are not the same. In the GE Non VVTI and both variants of the GTE, yes this is true but not for the VVTI GE. Breaking point for VVTi GE is much lower then stated above. And the VVTi ringlands are thinner which also adds to their weakness under boost.

Quote:
The GE motor runs a distributor-based ignition system with spark plug wires and a single coil. The GTE runs coil-on-plug ignition with individual coils for every plug. The distributor gets in the way somestimes of the turbo intake pipe
Not true on our set up

Quote:
Now onto Similarities:
Both the GE and GTE bottom ends are VERY strong. The only difference being the pistons themselves. Thats right, the rods and crankshaft are the SAME parts!!! The 2jz motor itself was DESIGNED to be turbocharged from the beginning and is built VERY strongly from the factory. No one yet knows the limits of a GE setup, though there are several 1000whp setups on the GTE with the stock bottom-end. Dave H uses a GE motor and ran a 9sec 1/4 mile time with the stock GE block ( a spare 220k mile motor to be specific!)
All in all, it is very doubtful that you will need to build your motor when designing a NA-T setup unless you're gunning for ridiculous amounts of power. The stock cams are roughly the SAME.
There are a few things to keep in mind when deciding what you want to do. The biggest decision RIGHT NOW is whether you want to build a DIY kit or order a pre-built one from a reputable shop.
GE Non VVTI yes, GE VVTi nope

Quote:
10:1 compression limits you to around 7-8psi without fiddling with your ignition timing (stock timing has a big "spike" of advance around 4000-4500rpms that will cause detonation if running more than 8-9psi and the base timing is not retarded 3-4 degrees)
-stock injectors will also limit you powerwise. I've seen several setups make OVER 400whp on the stock fuel setup (upgraded fuel pump) but its still best to upgrade them (and with a way to control them too -- SAFC, emanage, MAP ECU, AEM standalone, etc)... generally I wouldnt go over 350whp with the stock 330s.
-intercooler options, some kits come with some dont, most of the lower-priced ones dont and you are left to fend for yourself in the intercooler arena... you NEED one to run more than 5 or 6psi reliably
About 5 PSI (correct me if Im wrong) is max on our stock motors before running into issues.

I can just see someone fining this post from a google search and then think that the information in here is good info for their IS build. Everything I didnt quote was relevant. Everything quoted should be corrected or have a asterisk placed by it noting relevance only to the GE NON vvti engine.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 03-02-2018, 12:04 AM
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Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought the 2JZGE VVTi, like those in stock IS300, have a 10.5:1 compression ratio.

NA Supra Clutch & Flywheel // Dezod Green Headers // BC 264 Cams // Titan V2 Cam Gear // JOEZ Intake
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-16-2018, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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Oh wow I never thought this would get traffic so... I kinda just left it since it's really just some notes which, as pointed out aren't my original notes for the most part... I went way further into my research, was starting to purchase some parts for my build... Then sold it and bought an Evo lol so I totally forgot about this until today.

Yes the is300 has a 10.5:1 ratio.

The purpose of pointing out the size of the rods was more for the length, yes the vvti rods are definitely thinner, but I did not know about the ringlands.

The rest of the stuff in the post really is a direct copy and paste (from an ancient post) for reference material only, however I can see the issue with someone taking it as cut and dry fact. I'll see what I can do.

Bottom line is, I'm happy to edit the crap out of it if it can actually help some enthusiasts out. I made it in the first place because it was SO hard just to find a consolidated info page to start from. Any specific examples of edits are helpful, as well as any links to other threads that explain any concepts in depth.

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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 12:10 AM
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hey guys I am new here so I have many questions but I have been doing my research and there is so much information and people take so many different routes with the 2JZ ge vvti engine that I don't even know what is the right safe way to turbo mine.

I have a 2002 lexus is300 and my engine has 150k miles but is has been taken care of very well the car still looks and feel brand new. My goal is to turbo the car and I would like to make 500 whp. I know it will take a lot of work, time and money to get there and that is fine. that is why I wanted to ask if anyone here has already achieved this number with their engine and I wanted to ask that person whether they left their engine on stock internals or did they upgrade and with what did they upgrade. the car will continue to be my daily even after it has a turbo that why I want to build it on the safe side even if it requires more money. that said I would still like to do only the thing necessary for 500 nothing more.(for now lol). Also any kind of current parts list would ne awesome.
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 09:04 AM
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GTE rods/pistons, an old Master Power MP72 turbo @ 17psi and 16 of timing on a 50/50 blend of 93 pump and E85. I have a Haltech ecu that is controlling fuel/spark only. The Toyota ecu is doing everything else.

You'll need to replace the stock GE-VVTi rods/pistons if you want a reliable 500hp. There's way too many options/possibilities to lay out a parts list.

Last edited by Hodgdon Extreme; 06-14-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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