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r154 or cd009 for 600hp??? Need help!

39K views 32 replies 12 participants last post by  BERK 
#1 · (Edited)
Asking members who have ran either transmissions or BOTH (preferably) on their 1st gen is300:

Anyone on here running a cd009 6-speed trans? Did you end up swapping out the rear end as well? Absolutely torn between getting a brand new r154 through driftmotion (the newer tripod version with triple synchros) or going with the collins kit cd009 swap for the LONGEST time. I've done research on both for the 2 past years but trying to find someone who has ran both transmissions / or even one or the other and can provide insight on their experiences.

Plan is to eventually push 500-600hp with my borg warner s360 big single as I know our auto rear diff (3.91) is perfect with the r154 but just hesitant with how notchy it is even with a cube speed short shifter. If I'm spending around 6k for the swap I just feel like I should be getting a buttery transmission. If I were to go cd009, I'd definitely get the serial 9 cd999 shifter as well. I know t56 is the best 6-speed option out there for us but 8k for that swap is just out of my budget.

Here's are reasons I'm still torn:

R154 5-speed transmission -

Pros:
-good/reliable to around 550hp w stock internals
-easy manual swap
-perfect for the auto rear end (3.91)
-tall gears / good for single turbo

Cons:
-"truck-like" trans feel / not buttery
-shifts aren't what you'd expect in the "modern era" of double and triple-cone synchros
-parts to replace down the road are more expensive and continue to go up
-30-40 year old trans model

cd009 6-speed transmission -

Pros:
-6speed gear ratios almost identical to v160
-good for 800hp+
-strong / stout transmission that's extremely affordable
-parts to replace are cheap
-collins has a full kit readily available
-2006 final revision model

Cons:
-short gears with the stock auto differential
-would have to swap out the rear end - gs400 or TT?
-harder manual swap (requires hammering the tunnel for clearance, need to run spacers to adjust height from cross member, potential cutting around shifter area)

Any insight would be much appreciated!
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I just removed my r154 setup, to move on to a t56. I considered the 009, but I just didn't think it made sense; here's why:

To buy all the goodies so it was done "right", the difference was only about 1000-1500. That's with both transmissions getting excellent clutches, high quality aluminum driveshaft, etc... Basically comparing apples to apples.

Servicing the 009 is not as easy as the 56, should there be an issue. Lots of info on reworking the 56 diy, and lots of shops that work on them.

The 009 gearing is just WRONG for the 3.7x and 3.9x diffs that are readily available. I agree that coupled with a 3.1x rear gear, the v160/cd009 gearing is fine, but have you priced a used manual Supra TT diff?!?!? They're like $4k+. No thanks. Else, you're looking at a Ford 8.8 swap or something. Still expensive and lots of effort. Meanwhile the close-ratio 56 (2.66-->.63) is basically perfect with 3.9 rear gear. If you want a little taller, you can cheaply but a 3.7 diff from a manual IS, or a BRZ 4.11 gear if you want deeper (which matches V160/3.11 perfectly).

I'm not a fan of the cutting off of the bell and using an adaptor.

Kalvin Malli on YouTube did the 009 behind his JZ, and failed 2 of the adaptor pilot bushing things (which look janky as hell to me to begin with), and ended up "solving" the growling noises by literally chopping off the tip of his input shaft - others in the comments said they needed to do same. This is uber janky, and will lead to input shaft and/or input shaft bearing failure. No thanks.

So, after an hour's research and comparison shopping, the 009 was off the table for me.

Also looked into V160. The main deal breaker there came down to nonexistent ability to service it if it breaks, and the gearing being so off that it mandates $$$$ for a new diff solution.

What it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned, is you spend $4-5k on a complete r154 setup, or $7-8k on a 56mag. This is for new/freshly rebuilt units.

If you bite and scratch, claw and finagle, you can probably shave ~$1000-1500 off these prices.
 
#4 ·
Appreciate the detailed response Hodgdon Extreme. Those are the exact reasons I'm getting drawn away from the cd009 route.

My questions for you are how did you like the r154, how long did you run it / at what hp, and what pushed you to remove that setup? Are you currently at 3.91 or 3.73 rear end? I feel like literally everyone who runs the r154 eventually removes it to go cd009 or t56. Just curious as to why everyone eventually scraps their r154 set ups - is it mainly due to how it feels or solely b/c of power limitations? "SR Entertainment" and "Pure Function" on youtube who both had r154s eventually removed that set up and can't say enough about how much they love the switch to t56 as the shifts are much more buttery / can safely handle more power.

If i had the money, I'd definitely go t56 as it sounds like the perfect setup for our 3.91 rear gear ratio but it's just beyond my $5-6k budget atm. I'm currently still auto so I'm having to factor in the manual conversion cost in addition to all the goodies to get it done "right", which is why I'm still partially considering the cd009 route. Wondering if you would advise just settling with the r154 or holding off on it all and save up for the t56.
 
#3 · (Edited)
And regarding my experience with my R154:

It's a decent trans...

Mine actually shifts really great if you know what you're doing - which is to say you know what approximate engine speed will match the vehicle speed for whichever gear you are selecting, and then you push on the gear stick when engine speed is correct. This minimizes the workload of the synchronizers; which makes the trans shift extra smooth, and allows the synchs to last basically forever. If you just jam the lever towards a gear without paying any attention to matching engine/vehicle speed, it'll require more force and doesn't shift as sweet as most people have come to expect in the "modern era" of double and triple-cone synchs. Also, with an aggressive puck clutch (which is a requirement for 450+hp), not rev-matching decently is going to cause clutch re-engagements to be very abrupt - and rather embarrassing if you've got a passenger.

Gearing is ok for a turbo 2J, but 1st and 2nd are a bit short in my opinion. 3rd 4th and 5th are well matched to a turbo 2J with a 3.7 or 3.9 rear gear.

My biggest complaint with it is fear of breakage, noise and lack of higher gear. For every report of a '154 handling 700hp is another report of one breaking at 500hp. My car makes 450, but I'm planning to pump up the jam a bit, and I want a trans that is simply gonna handle it no questions asked. Lot's of reports that 154s are kinda noisy. Mine isn't "noisy", but it is definitely noisier than one of the fancy newer transmissions like the t56. And last, the 1:1, 0.8:1 and 0.63:1 4th, 5th and 6th is going to match the 2J perfectly (for my tastes) with 3.7 or 3.9 rear gears.
 
#6 ·
I bought my car, already turbocharged, about a year ago and it had the 154 installed already. Story I got, was dude had bought the car with a W55, and it broke, so he bought a rebuilt 154 from another dude. I was told he'd put less than 5k on it. He didn't know anything about tuning, and had used the car "as is" for his entire ownership. This was 23psi, which I've learned is likely ~525hp or so. I road tuned the car, turned down the boost to keep injector duty cycle under 95% (yikes!!), and it dyno'd 465.8 @ 17psi, if you want the exact number.

Anyway, it didn't go into 4th gear or reverse properly, so I pulled and inspected. 4th was hurt, the shifter housing did not properly fit the rear case of the trans, and a snap ring had been installed in the wrong spot.

So I went thru it and put the heavy duty Marlin crawler parts and the new billet forks. I've since put about 1500 miles on it with ~450hp.
 
#7 ·
Interesting. What blows my mind is people will spend all this money on a r154 set up but end up getting rid of it within 1-2 years max. The majority of people I talk to seem to run their r154 for no more than 2 years before deciding to switch to a 6-speed set up except for rare cases - anyone let me know if they've ran theirs for longer lol.

Makes me think I should either just settle with the cd009 and gamble with finding an affordable/used rear end or just save up for the t56 and be broke..
 
#9 · (Edited)
Nobody "wants" an R154. They settle for one.

I think the same can be said for the 009...

What everybody actually wants is a V160 or perhaps a T56, but oftentimes the $7.5-$10k just isn't possible, so you do what you gotta do.

I also say "buy once, cry once", and get the T56. Considering the time/effort/money associated with the correct re-gear for the 009, you'll net little, if any savings from the T56.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Had a few minutes to spare, and nothing illustrates a concept like a graph...

All of these are based on a rear tire size of 265-35/18

So here is engine speed vs. vehicle speed for every gear of a V160 with the Supra TT 3.13 diff ratio, graphed against a CD009 with 3.92 gears.

V160/3.13 is in RED
CD009 in GREEN




My thoughts:

This is some short gearing. You'll be shifting a lot. These are so far apart from one another it's actually hard to look at. You'll need 7300rpm to hit 60 in 2nd gear. 6th gear in the '009 is identical to 5th gear in the V160. You'll be cruising 80mph @ 3350rpm in 6th gear with the '009. This would probably be great for a track car used on a fairly tight/short course.


Next up is the same exact V160 with 3.13 rear gear compared to a T56 magnum "close ratio" paired with the the stock 3.92 rear gear in an automatic IS300.
V160 is in RED
T56 is in GREEN:




My thoughts:

1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th are a few percent taller, and allow you to go about 4-5mph faster than the V160. You can hit 60 in 2nd gear @ 5500rpm. 5th and 6th are identical to the V160. You'll be cruising 80mph @ 2600rpm. A change down to 5th puts you at 3330rpm, which should be enough to get some boost going for some swift passing. A change down to 4th @ 80mph puts you at 4200, which should spool almost any turbo and give you close to 3000rpm of powerband to pull through on your way to ~135mph (in Mexico).

Here are a few more variations to consider, note the graph titles tell you what is being compared...











Hope this helps in your decision making!
 
#12 · (Edited)
I doubt any more or any less. Generally, the torque capacity of a manual comes down to the center-to-center distance between the input/output shafts and the countershaft. This dictates gear diameters, which dictates how much leverage the gears have. Imagine trying to put 100ftlb of torque on a bolt using a 6" long wrench vs a 24" long wrench... Transmitting the same torque, the longer lever obviously requires a lot less force from you. Same with the gears. Bigger diameter gears have way more leverage and are thus more lightly stressed while carrying the same torque. So, a bigger center-to-center distance is a big strength improvement. This is unchanged between old and new R154.

Other improvements can be made by widening the gears, but this is limited if you don't make the gear case longer. Regardless, new R154s do not have wider gears. Most OEM gears and shafts are made of decent steel that has been induction hardened. It's good stuff, but can be improved on with fancier steel. 5450 or 8620 are common upgrades, but these only provide a somewhat "incremental" improvement. If you make the gears out of something really fancy you can make big improvements, but it's very costly. I really doubt Toyota decided to pull out all the stops and make the newer R154 gears out of unobtanium... Last, you can make the gear helix angle shallower (increases noise), but the newer R154 does not have a different helix angle.

Really the differences are in the synchronizers themselves, and the way the shift shaft exits the case.
 
#13 ·
I have a CD009 behind an Aristo that lays down 450 wheel. The rear diff (3.90) was miserable, a must change. I put 3.58's in the stock case and it was a total transformation. I also have the 999 shifter and although it's a nice piece, I've always had 4th to 5th issues under spirited driving conditions. The problem is that the spring that compresses for reverse lockout is too soft IMO and it compresses when shifting hard from 4-5 and will get hung up under the lockout plate. I've done some modifications for a smoother shift, at the cost of loosing the reverse lockout, but it's much better this way. Like I said, it's a nice shifter but it's not perfect. As for the tunnel, it only requires slight hammering and all is good. Good luck on your decision.
 
#14 ·
T56 magnum. I had a w55 and ar5, but if your going to be making power like you are might as well do it right from the beginning. My t56 magnum setup cost about 7k with a osgiken rc3. Only con about it is price but it’s the best manual option out there.
 
#22 · (Edited)
So I've just completed my T56 magnum swap (from R154), and put the first ~50-75 miles on it. I have 3.73 rear gears, the close ratio T56, and the McLeod RXT twin...

Wow.

Smooth and quiet, shifts beautifully. I modded the stock tremec shifter and made my own gear stick, which is taller/longer than what most people think is "normal", and also has a dogleg to put the knob closer to the steering wheel. Anyway, the throw isn't super short, but the leverage allows effortless shifting.

The McLeod engages super smooth - huge improvement over a single disk ceramic puck clutch.

First gear (2.66:1) is a little tall with the 3.73 rear gear, so getting rolling from a stop on a hill requires you to know what you're doing - but it's nice to be able to actually drive-through first gear and get up some speed before needing to hit 2nd.

The .63:1 sixth gear is as much as my engine can handle for cruising at 65-70+ (2400rpm @ 80) I can maintain speed just fine, even on uphill grades, but I need to be deep into the throttle for that, and my boost gage reads 2-3psi.

I don't think there's a chance in hell even a turbo 2J is gonna have the fiddlebees to pull an IS300 around with the wide ratio .5:1 sixth gear.
 
#23 · (Edited)
So I've just completed my T56 magnum swap (from R154), and put the first ~50-75 miles on it. I have 3.73 rear gears, the close ratio T56, and the McLeod RXT twin...

First gear (2.66:1) is a little tall with the 3.73 rear gear, so getting rolling from a stop on a hill requires you to know what you're doing - but it's nice to be able to actually drive-through first gear and get up some speed before needing to hit 2nd.

The .63:1 sixth gear is as much as my engine can handle for cruising at 65-70+ (2400rpm @ 80) I can maintain speed just fine, even on uphill grades, but I need to be deep into the throttle for that, and my boost gage reads 2-3psi.

I don't think there's a chance in hell even a turbo 2J is gonna have the fiddlebees to pull an IS300 around with the wide ratio .5:1 sixth gear.
I just put my order in and ill have everything installed in 2-3 weeks. I went for the close since Joel doesn't really sell anything but the close. He set me up with the Clutchmasters FX400 6 puck that I'll be pairing with a lightened flywheel.

Since my first gear in the W55 is shot, i've been starting in second for a few months now. I'm sure 2.66:1 is reasonable compared to 2:1, as I've finally gotten used to it.

I figured if I wanted to push the limits on the speeds to gearing, I can precisely tune it in with different wheel and tire setups. I'm not quite sure how an N/A engine will respond to the gearing since you say you're under boost.

Are you using the Redline MT85 Joel Recommends?

**update: The recommended fluid changed from RL MT85 to Amsoil Torque Drive ATF
 
#25 ·
I have a r154 in mine. I used it with the 3.73 gear for 3 years. Decent setup at 575WHp.
This year I changed the rear gear to a 4.10 and its great also dynoed 620whp and I beat the shit out of it drag racing.
Havent had a problem yet. Fingers crossed. Seems like a decent swap to me. If its just the shifter feel that making you spend that extra coin on a different trans... I'd switch another r154 into mine again. But 6 gears is pretty badass.
 
#26 ·
first off sorry for bumping an old thread.

but i am in a similar situation but i already own a r154. i dont have any swap parts yet.

i am considering selling the r154 and going cd009 because bomb proof. i dont want to get all the r154 swap parts then figure out it wont work for me...

i am building my car to be around 600whp. in the future i may want to go up to 800 MAX.

this is a drift car only. i done research on the r154 and it seems its stock limits are fairly low ~400 ft lbs or torque. i could have it built and then it should hold my max power goals. but after having it built it will be more expensive then the cd009.

i bought the r154 for $1000 turn key swap ~$2200 plus rebuild ~$1300 =$4500

i can buy a cd009 for $1000 turn key swap is ~$2700 no rebuild cause bulletproof= $3700

the only thing that worries me about the cd009 is the gear ratio.
 
#28 ·
first off sorry for bumping an old thread.

but i am in a similar situation but i already own a r154. i dont have any swap parts yet.

i am considering selling the r154 and going cd009 because bomb proof. i dont want to get all the r154 swap parts then figure out it wont work for me...

i am building my car to be around 600whp. in the future i may want to go up to 800 MAX.

this is a drift car only. i done research on the r154 and it seems its stock limits are fairly low ~400 ft lbs or torque. i could have it built and then it should hold my max power goals. but after having it built it will be more expensive then the cd009.

i bought the r154 for $1000 turn key swap ~$2200 plus rebuild ~$1300 =$4500

i can buy a cd009 for $1000 turn key swap is ~$2700 no rebuild cause bulletproof= $3700

the only thing that worries me about the cd009 is the gear ratio.
Why not just get a T56.
 
#32 ·
Update: Been basically two years since installing my T56 magnum close-ratio in my turbo car with 3.73 gears. There've been no issues, but I recently decided to improve. The 3.73 gears were just too tall, so I installed a 2019 BRZ differential with 4.30 gears and Torsen LSD. The car gets going from a stop much nicer now, and 5th/6th gear are much more reasonable. With the 3.73 gears, I was at 2400rpm @ 80mph (6th gear), and the engine just barely had the nuts to do the job. The engine was much happier at 3000rpm @ 95mph. Now, with the 4.30 gears I'm at 2900rpm @ 80 and the car is just much spicier. I can hit 65mph in 2nd gear (6500rpm). Only bummer is I can't theoretically go 200mph anymore, I think the numbers work out to 185mph @ 6500rpm. Not sure my car has the nuts to do 185 anyway...

I also re-visited my shifter arrangement. I had been running the OEM tremec shifter, which I'd modified. It worked fine, but because I like a really tall gear stick - shifting required too little force and throws were way too long. I bought a replacement shifter from Core shifters, which is the only outfit I was able to find that offers T56 magnum shifters with different pivot ratios. I ended up modifying it in basically the same way I modded the original shifter (plus some slight cutting of the hole in my transmission tunnel). Now I have a proper short throw despite the fact my gear lever is so tall. I measured the throw from 3rd to 4th at 1.5", and from 1st to Reverse is only 1.25"! Despite this, it's quite easy to shift and feels great.

I'm now convinced the T56 close ratio, coupled with 4.10 or 4.30 gears is clearly the way to go with our cars.

Last, Tremec is now offering a new version of the T56 magnum called the Magnum "F", which has a different tailshaft housing and shifter placement that is ideally suited for our cars.
 
#33 ·
Looks like this has been covered pretty thoroughly already, but I would also say t56 is the best choice, but cd009 is also good.

In my car with 600whp and a 3.73 rear I ran an r154 for years and now have been running a CD00A for about 6 months.

The r154 had great gearing for my powerband, but shifting felt terrible. There was absolutely no way to shift quickly. Had to let the revs come wayy down before the synchros would let it get into the next gear.

When it was time to rebuild my clutch I decided to sell off the swap and go for a 6 speed instead. Because r154s are getting so hard to find, the money I got for my built r154 nearly payed for the entire CD00A swap.

Now driving with the CD00A for a while has been much more pleasant overall. Shifts great. But the gearing is annoyingly short. I thought I would adjust, but I haven't. Started gathering parts for a Ford 8.8 swap instead.

Between those two, it's not even close in my mind, I'd rather shift too much than hate every shift. And I'm confident the CD will be cheaper to boot.

But having driven other t56 cars, I'd say they're nicer to shift than the CD and the gearing is better out of the box. With a CD, you'll probably end up wanting a Ford 8.8 or Toyota 200mm diff eventually and that will end up costing more than if you had just ponied up for the t56 in the beginning.
 
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