r154 or cd009 for 600hp??? Need help! - Lexus IS Forum
User Tag List

 5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
 
r154 or cd009 for 600hp??? Need help!

Asking members who have ran either transmissions or BOTH (preferably) on their 1st gen is300:

Anyone on here running a cd009 6-speed trans? Did you end up swapping out the rear end as well? Absolutely torn between getting a brand new r154 through driftmotion (the newer tripod version with triple synchros) or going with the collins kit cd009 swap for the LONGEST time. I've done research on both for the 2 past years but trying to find someone who has ran both transmissions / or even one or the other and can provide insight on their experiences.

Plan is to eventually push 500-600hp with my borg warner s360 big single as I know our auto rear diff (3.91) is perfect with the r154 but just hesitant with how notchy it is even with a cube speed short shifter. If I'm spending around 6k for the swap I just feel like I should be getting a buttery transmission. If I were to go cd009, I'd definitely get the serial 9 cd999 shifter as well. I know t56 is the best 6-speed option out there for us but 8k for that swap is just out of my budget.

Here's are reasons I'm still torn:

R154 5-speed transmission -

Pros:
-good/reliable to around 550hp w stock internals
-easy manual swap
-perfect for the auto rear end (3.91)
-tall gears / good for single turbo

Cons:
-"truck-like" trans feel / not buttery
-shifts aren't what you'd expect in the "modern era" of double and triple-cone synchros
-parts to replace down the road are more expensive and continue to go up
-30-40 year old trans model

cd009 6-speed transmission -

Pros:
-6speed gear ratios almost identical to v160
-good for 800hp+
-strong / stout transmission that's extremely affordable
-parts to replace are cheap
-collins has a full kit readily available
-2006 final revision model

Cons:
-short gears with the stock auto differential
-would have to swap out the rear end - gs400 or TT?
-harder manual swap (requires hammering the tunnel for clearance, need to run spacers to adjust height from cross member, potential cutting around shifter area)

Any insight would be much appreciated!

Last edited by is300brian; 05-19-2019 at 02:44 PM.
is300brian is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 12:47 PM
Frequenter
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
 
I just removed my r154 setup, to move on to a t56. I considered the 009, but I just didn't think it made sense; here's why:

To buy all the goodies so it was done "right", the difference was only about 1000-1500. That's with both transmissions getting excellent clutches, high quality aluminum driveshaft, etc... Basically comparing apples to apples.

Servicing the 009 is not as easy as the 56, should there be an issue. Lots of info on reworking the 56 diy, and lots of shops that work on them.

The 009 gearing is just WRONG for the 3.7x and 3.9x diffs that are readily available. I agree that coupled with a 3.1x rear gear, the v160/cd009 gearing is fine, but have you priced a used manual Supra TT diff?!?!? They're like $4k+. No thanks. Else, you're looking at a Ford 8.8 swap or something. Still expensive and lots of effort. Meanwhile the close-ratio 56 (2.66-->.63) is basically perfect with 3.9 rear gear. If you want a little taller, you can cheaply but a 3.7 diff from a manual IS, or a BRZ 4.11 gear if you want deeper (which matches V160/3.11 perfectly).

I'm not a fan of the cutting off of the bell and using an adaptor.

Kalvin Malli on YouTube did the 009 behind his JZ, and failed 2 of the adaptor pilot bushing things (which look janky as hell to me to begin with), and ended up "solving" the growling noises by literally chopping off the tip of his input shaft - others in the comments said they needed to do same. This is uber janky, and will lead to input shaft and/or input shaft bearing failure. No thanks.

So, after an hour's research and comparison shopping, the 009 was off the table for me.

Also looked into V160. The main deal breaker there came down to nonexistent ability to service it if it breaks, and the gearing being so off that it mandates $$$$ for a new diff solution.

What it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned, is you spend $4-5k on a complete r154 setup, or $7-8k on a 56mag. This is for new/freshly rebuilt units.

If you bite and scratch, claw and finagle, you can probably shave ~$1000-1500 off these prices.
FRaCTioNaL likes this.

Last edited by Hodgdon Extreme; 05-19-2019 at 12:55 PM.
Hodgdon Extreme is offline  
post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 02:01 PM
Frequenter
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
 
And regarding my experience with my R154:

It's a decent trans...

Mine actually shifts really great if you know what you're doing - which is to say you know what approximate engine speed will match the vehicle speed for whichever gear you are selecting, and then you push on the gear stick when engine speed is correct. This minimizes the workload of the synchronizers; which makes the trans shift extra smooth, and allows the synchs to last basically forever. If you just jam the lever towards a gear without paying any attention to matching engine/vehicle speed, it'll require more force and doesn't shift as sweet as most people have come to expect in the "modern era" of double and triple-cone synchs. Also, with an aggressive puck clutch (which is a requirement for 450+hp), not rev-matching decently is going to cause clutch re-engagements to be very abrupt - and rather embarrassing if you've got a passenger.

Gearing is ok for a turbo 2J, but 1st and 2nd are a bit short in my opinion. 3rd 4th and 5th are well matched to a turbo 2J with a 3.7 or 3.9 rear gear.

My biggest complaint with it is fear of breakage, noise and lack of higher gear. For every report of a '154 handling 700hp is another report of one breaking at 500hp. My car makes 450, but I'm planning to pump up the jam a bit, and I want a trans that is simply gonna handle it no questions asked. Lot's of reports that 154s are kinda noisy. Mine isn't "noisy", but it is definitely noisier than one of the fancy newer transmissions like the t56. And last, the 1:1, 0.8:1 and 0.63:1 4th, 5th and 6th is going to match the 2J perfectly (for my tastes) with 3.7 or 3.9 rear gears.

Last edited by Hodgdon Extreme; 05-19-2019 at 02:09 PM.
Hodgdon Extreme is offline  
 
post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgdon Extreme View Post
I just removed my r154 setup, to move on to a t56. I considered the 009, but I just didn't think it made sense; here's why:

To buy all the goodies so it was done "right", the difference was only about 1000-1500. That's with both transmissions getting excellent clutches, high quality aluminum driveshaft, etc... Basically comparing apples to apples.

Servicing the 009 is not as easy as the 56, should there be an issue. Lots of info on reworking the 56 diy, and lots of shops that work on them.

The 009 gearing is just WRONG for the 3.7x and 3.9x diffs that are readily available. I agree that coupled with a 3.1x rear gear, the v160/cd009 gearing is fine, but have you priced a used manual Supra TT diff?!?!? They're like $4k+. No thanks. Else, you're looking at a Ford 8.8 swap or something. Still expensive and lots of effort. Meanwhile the close-ratio 56 (2.66-->.63) is basically perfect with 3.9 rear gear. If you want a little taller, you can cheaply but a 3.7 diff from a manual IS, or a BRZ 4.11 gear if you want deeper (which matches V160/3.11 perfectly).

I'm not a fan of the cutting off of the bell and using an adaptor.

Kalvin Malli on YouTube did the 009 behind his JZ, and failed 2 of the adaptor pilot bushing things (which look janky as hell to me to begin with), and ended up "solving" the growling noises by literally chopping off the tip of his input shaft - others in the comments said they needed to do same. This is uber janky, and will lead to input shaft and/or input shaft bearing failure. No thanks.

So, after an hour's research and comparison shopping, the 009 was off the table for me.

Also looked into V160. The main deal breaker there came down to nonexistent ability to service it if it breaks, and the gearing being so off that it mandates $$$$ for a new diff solution.

What it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned, is you spend $4-5k on a complete r154 setup, or $7-8k on a 56mag. This is for new/freshly rebuilt units.

If you bite and scratch, claw and finagle, you can probably shave ~$1000-1500 off these prices.

Appreciate the detailed response Hodgdon Extreme. Those are the exact reasons I'm getting drawn away from the cd009 route.

My questions for you are how did you like the r154, how long did you run it / at what hp, and what pushed you to remove that setup? Are you currently at 3.91 or 3.73 rear end? I feel like literally everyone who runs the r154 eventually removes it to go cd009 or t56. Just curious as to why everyone eventually scraps their r154 set ups - is it mainly due to how it feels or solely b/c of power limitations? "SR Entertainment" and "Pure Function" on youtube who both had r154s eventually removed that set up and can't say enough about how much they love the switch to t56 as the shifts are much more buttery / can safely handle more power.

If i had the money, I'd definitely go t56 as it sounds like the perfect setup for our 3.91 rear gear ratio but it's just beyond my $5-6k budget atm. I'm currently still auto so I'm having to factor in the manual conversion cost in addition to all the goodies to get it done "right", which is why I'm still partially considering the cd009 route. Wondering if you would advise just settling with the r154 or holding off on it all and save up for the t56.
is300brian is offline  
post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgdon Extreme View Post
And regarding my experience with my R154:

It's a decent trans...

Mine actually shifts really great if you know what you're doing - which is to say you know what approximate engine speed will match the vehicle speed for whichever gear you are selecting, and then you push on the gear stick when engine speed is correct. This minimizes the workload of the synchronizers; which makes the trans shift extra smooth, and allows the synchs to last basically forever. If you just jam the lever towards a gear without paying any attention to matching engine/vehicle speed, it'll require more force and doesn't shift as sweet as most people have come to expect in the "modern era" of double and triple-cone synchs. Also, with an aggressive puck clutch (which is a requirement for 450+hp), not rev-matching decently is going to cause clutch re-engagements to be very abrupt - and rather embarrassing if you've got a passenger.

Gearing is ok for a turbo 2J, but 1st and 2nd are a bit short in my opinion. 3rd 4th and 5th are well matched to a turbo 2J with a 3.7 or 3.9 rear gear.

My biggest complaint with it is fear of breakage, noise and lack of higher gear. For every report of a '154 handling 700hp is another report of one breaking at 500hp. My car makes 450, but I'm planning to pump up the jam a bit, and I want a trans that is simply gonna handle it no questions asked. Lot's of reports that 154s are kinda noisy. Mine isn't "noisy", but it is definitely noisier than one of the fancy newer transmissions like the t56. And last, the 1:1, 0.8:1 and 0.63:1 4th, 5th and 6th is going to match the 2J perfectly (for my tastes) with 3.7 or 3.9 rear gears.
Woah you read my mind as I was writing up questions in response to your first post. Gotcha - how long did you run your r154 set up at 450?
is300brian is offline  
post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 03:09 PM
Frequenter
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
 
I bought my car, already turbocharged, about a year ago and it had the 154 installed already. Story I got, was dude had bought the car with a W55, and it broke, so he bought a rebuilt 154 from another dude. I was told he'd put less than 5k on it. He didn't know anything about tuning, and had used the car "as is" for his entire ownership. This was 23psi, which I've learned is likely ~525hp or so. I road tuned the car, turned down the boost to keep injector duty cycle under 95% (yikes!!), and it dyno'd 465.8 @ 17psi, if you want the exact number.

Anyway, it didn't go into 4th gear or reverse properly, so I pulled and inspected. 4th was hurt, the shifter housing did not properly fit the rear case of the trans, and a snap ring had been installed in the wrong spot.

So I went thru it and put the heavy duty Marlin crawler parts and the new billet forks. I've since put about 1500 miles on it with ~450hp.
Hodgdon Extreme is offline  
post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 07:00 PM Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgdon Extreme View Post
I bought my car, already turbocharged, about a year ago and it had the 154 installed already. Story I got, was dude had bought the car with a W55, and it broke, so he bought a rebuilt 154 from another dude. I was told he'd put less than 5k on it. He didn't know anything about tuning, and had used the car "as is" for his entire ownership. This was 23psi, which I've learned is likely ~525hp or so. I road tuned the car, turned down the boost to keep injector duty cycle under 95% (yikes!!), and it dyno'd 465.8 @ 17psi, if you want the exact number.

Anyway, it didn't go into 4th gear or reverse properly, so I pulled and inspected. 4th was hurt, the shifter housing did not properly fit the rear case of the trans, and a snap ring had been installed in the wrong spot.

So I went thru it and put the heavy duty Marlin crawler parts and the new billet forks. I've since put about 1500 miles on it with ~450hp.
Interesting. What blows my mind is people will spend all this money on a r154 set up but end up getting rid of it within 1-2 years max. The majority of people I talk to seem to run their r154 for no more than 2 years before deciding to switch to a 6-speed set up except for rare cases - anyone let me know if they've ran theirs for longer lol.

Makes me think I should either just settle with the cd009 and gamble with finding an affordable/used rear end or just save up for the t56 and be broke..
is300brian is offline  
post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 08:42 PM
Lurker
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 91
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by is300brian View Post
Makes me think I should either just settle with the cd009 and gamble with finding an affordable/used rear end or just save up for the t56 and be broke..
Sometimes its better to have a lot of pain for a little, than a little pain for a long time.

I say go for the T56
DH_71631 is offline  
post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 10:33 PM
Frequenter
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
 
Nobody "wants" an R154. They settle for one.

I think the same can be said for the 009...

What everybody actually wants is a V160 or perhaps a T56, but oftentimes the $7.5-$10k just isn't possible, so you do what you gotta do.

I also say "buy once, cry once", and get the T56. Considering the time/effort/money associated with the correct re-gear for the 009, you'll net little, if any savings from the T56.

Last edited by Hodgdon Extreme; 05-20-2019 at 08:06 AM.
Hodgdon Extreme is offline  
post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 11:32 AM
Frequenter
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
 
Had a few minutes to spare, and nothing illustrates a concept like a graph...

All of these are based on a rear tire size of 265-35/18

So here is engine speed vs. vehicle speed for every gear of a V160 with the Supra TT 3.13 diff ratio, graphed against a CD009 with 3.92 gears.

V160/3.13 is in RED
CD009 in GREEN




My thoughts:

This is some short gearing. You'll be shifting a lot. These are so far apart from one another it's actually hard to look at. You'll need 7300rpm to hit 60 in 2nd gear. 6th gear in the '009 is identical to 5th gear in the V160. You'll be cruising 80mph @ 3350rpm in 6th gear with the '009. This would probably be great for a track car used on a fairly tight/short course.


Next up is the same exact V160 with 3.13 rear gear compared to a T56 magnum "close ratio" paired with the the stock 3.92 rear gear in an automatic IS300.
V160 is in RED
T56 is in GREEN:




My thoughts:

1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th are a few percent taller, and allow you to go about 4-5mph faster than the V160. You can hit 60 in 2nd gear @ 5500rpm. 5th and 6th are identical to the V160. You'll be cruising 80mph @ 2600rpm. A change down to 5th puts you at 3330rpm, which should be enough to get some boost going for some swift passing. A change down to 4th @ 80mph puts you at 4200, which should spool almost any turbo and give you close to 3000rpm of powerband to pull through on your way to ~135mph (in Mexico).

Here are a few more variations to consider, note the graph titles tell you what is being compared...











Hope this helps in your decision making!

Last edited by Hodgdon Extreme; 05-20-2019 at 01:45 PM.
Hodgdon Extreme is offline  
post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 10:28 AM
Follower
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Niagara
Posts: 523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
           
I wonder how much tq the brand new Driftmotion JZX100 R154's can hold compared to the older MKIII Supra transmissions?

02' MT w/MK3 Supra LSD and no sunroof
Piggity is offline  
post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 11:04 AM
Frequenter
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggity View Post
I wonder how much tq the brand new Driftmotion JZX100 R154's can hold compared to the older MKIII Supra transmissions?
I doubt any more or any less. Generally, the torque capacity of a manual comes down to the center-to-center distance between the input/output shafts and the countershaft. This dictates gear diameters, which dictates how much leverage the gears have. Imagine trying to put 100ftlb of torque on a bolt using a 6" long wrench vs a 24" long wrench... Transmitting the same torque, the longer lever obviously requires a lot less force from you. Same with the gears. Bigger diameter gears have way more leverage and are thus more lightly stressed while carrying the same torque. So, a bigger center-to-center distance is a big strength improvement. This is unchanged between old and new R154.

Other improvements can be made by widening the gears, but this is limited if you don't make the gear case longer. Regardless, new R154s do not have wider gears. Most OEM gears and shafts are made of decent steel that has been induction hardened. It's good stuff, but can be improved on with fancier steel. 5450 or 8620 are common upgrades, but these only provide a somewhat "incremental" improvement. If you make the gears out of something really fancy you can make big improvements, but it's very costly. I really doubt Toyota decided to pull out all the stops and make the newer R154 gears out of unobtanium... Last, you can make the gear helix angle shallower (increases noise), but the newer R154 does not have a different helix angle.

Really the differences are in the synchronizers themselves, and the way the shift shaft exits the case.
Piggity likes this.

Last edited by Hodgdon Extreme; 05-21-2019 at 12:15 PM.
Hodgdon Extreme is offline  
post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 06:18 PM
Lurker
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
I have a CD009 behind an Aristo that lays down 450 wheel. The rear diff (3.90) was miserable, a must change. I put 3.58's in the stock case and it was a total transformation. I also have the 999 shifter and although it's a nice piece, I've always had 4th to 5th issues under spirited driving conditions. The problem is that the spring that compresses for reverse lockout is too soft IMO and it compresses when shifting hard from 4-5 and will get hung up under the lockout plate. I've done some modifications for a smoother shift, at the cost of loosing the reverse lockout, but it's much better this way. Like I said, it's a nice shifter but it's not perfect. As for the tunnel, it only requires slight hammering and all is good. Good luck on your decision.
akarilo is offline  
post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 06:37 PM
Aficionado
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Roseville CA
Posts: 838
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
           
T56 magnum. I had a w55 and ar5, but if your going to be making power like you are might as well do it right from the beginning. My t56 magnum setup cost about 7k with a osgiken rc3. Only con about it is price but itís the best manual option out there.
Curran is offline  
post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 11:36 AM
Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Socal
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curran View Post
T56 magnum. I had a w55 and ar5, but if your going to be making power like you are might as well do it right from the beginning. My t56 magnum setup cost about 7k with a osgiken rc3. Only con about it is price but itís the best manual option out there.
Which t56(close/wide ratio) and diff are you using?

That's one hefty price tag, but it's not bad considering it's all brand new parts and an indestructible, yet streetable setup!
GGM_IS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Lexus IS Forum > 1st-Gen IS300 > Go Faster

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Lexus IS Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. If your address is invalid, you will likely lose access to the site.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Current users viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
R154 Output Shaft Bushing? Sniper512 General Discussion 13 03-13-2019 09:00 PM
1jzgte with cd009!!! Has anyone on here done this setup??? mikerogalski2 Go Faster 16 12-03-2018 10:04 AM
1jz with cd009 questions!!! mikerogalski2 General Discussion 1 04-18-2017 06:47 AM
Cube Speed Short Shifter. R154 Review ShiftnGears General Discussion 20 10-28-2016 08:44 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome